Diversity, Equity, Inclusion + Mainframe – The Open Mainframe EP 13

you Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the open Mainframe. The open Mainframe is a monthly video series. We do here on techstrong TV, and we partner with our friends at the open Mainframe project from the Linux Foundation.

On this series, they're kind enough to partner with us and we discuss topics of interest to the open or to the Mainframe Community with a particular episode. Are the open Mainframe community? We have what I think is going to be a very interesting topic to discuss today.

It it cuts across. More than just the Mainframe Community. It cuts across more than just the technology world.

But particularly in the technology world. It's an issue that we've taken on and one of the reasons quite frankly. I take pride in being in the technology industry is that we I'm not saying we're perfect and we've licked this problem, but at least we're willing to acknowledge it and and try and and you know in the Mainframe in the open main frame world as I think you're gonna find out today.

We have several initiatives and companies and groups that are that are hitting this topic head on what is that topic? The topic is diversity equality inclusion in the Mainframe Community specifically Got a great panel. I want to introduce you here to I am going to head I'm gonna ask them each to kind of introduce themselves.

If you don't mind. Let me start off with Shara Owen Schwartz who is with rocket rocket software Char. Welcome to the open Mainframe, please introduce yourself to the audience.

Thank you so much Alan. Yes. My name is Shara Owens Schwartz and I am the vice president of inclusion diversity in equity at Rocket software and really a part of my strategy or really the foundation of of my strategy at Rocket is is really rooted in equity creating access to opportunities for everyone which then opens up an environment for inclusion.

It opens up an environment where diverse talent and in ways of thinking attracted to our organization and where people can find belonging and what we know about finding belonging and feeling included is the optimal environment where people thrive and innovate so thanks for joining us and we'll look forward to hearing more here once we get rolling, but first let next let me introduce our next member of the panel and he's Derek Britton. Hey, Derek welcome. Hey Alan, how's it going?

If you wouldn't mind introducing yourself. Sure. Hi everybody.

I'm Derek Britton. I work for microfocus my role there is director of communications and brand strategy in the marketing team. But my involvement with this conversation today is is because of my involvement my membership of the open Mainframe project as a member of the cobal working group and I've been lucky enough to work with a team of very very smart and diverse individuals over the last couple years talking about the cobal language and and looking at some of the challenges the language faces and broader Mainframe Community faces at large and it's come up again.

And again the question mark over diversity inclusion, and I've been lucky enough to to take part in a couple of initiatives recently and we'll be doing a presentation later on this week at the share conference on that topic. So Perfect timing for me to be invited along just to share with you what we'll be doing. Very much.

Currently not the least. Is Genie glass and Genie welcome and if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself? Sir, hi Alan.

Thank you. And I'm here at share with Derek as well. And I'm here as the founder of virtual Zee Computing which is the first women founded women owned Mainframe software company in the history of the Mainframe.

I'm also here as a Native American woman and one of the founders of making strong Community stronger that I work on with Sarah and many others which is the first de and I initiative collaborative initiative across the Mainframe industry. Fantastic, he just repeat you and Shara work on a initiative called making so eating on making strong communities stronger. Okay.

I just want people to make sure they get that. All right, then. Let me bring you to my last but not least really my co-host of the open Mainframe project.

He's also the general manager of open Mainframe project from Linux Foundation. My friend John murdick. Hey, John.

Hey Allen, I'm really excited about this topic. I mean, we've talked about diversity in the past, you know how personal of a topic this is to me and I don't think we could have got much of a better three people in Mainframe together to have this conversation. So I'm really excited about this.

We really Pride a lot here in open Mainframe and Linux Foundation as a whole in diversity. And you know, I think sure you said it best diverse groups and diverse communities you get greater outcomes. We see a time and time again, so I'm really excited.

Hear about this and and learn along the way. So I I think that is a given and maybe the world does it readily acknowledge or know it yet that diverse communities you do get better outcomes, but nevertheless I want to just lay some stuff out here. number one I think you this conversation starts with an acknowledgment that we need.

Programs we need vice presidents of diversity and inclusion in many corporations. We need organizations like make communities. I'm going to mess it up because I'm old enough stronger make make strong Community stronger, right?

we need these things for a reason because there has been roadblocks there has been whatever you want to call it reasons why that we don't have more diversity and we all bring our own personal life experiences to this right as we were talking off camera my first exposure to computers. I was a little boy I went to work with my mom I go to work occasionally. She dragged me into the city.

Sort of Star Wars when the first came out like that actually she sent me down to the movies. But she worked on Mainframe. She was single mom raising four kids and in the summer when it was nothing for us to do.

Sometimes she let me tag along into the city at New York City and She'd be working on her computer screen, you know, these are least. Right you had at least time and stuff and I I thought it was very normal for women to work on computers. I didn't realize it was an exception probably that.

Or maybe the kinds of roads. They did were kind of limited in it. It wasn't until I grew up later on in life that I realized.

Right. There was this. scraperency, perhaps But I I said here, you know, I'm not in the position the three of you are and I I observe from my perch of where I am a tech struck.

Let's hear a little bit about you know, I mean obviously being a woman you can say, well I'm a woman and I see it we get that but what really kind of Made this a passion for you and again. Sure, if you don't mind, I'm gonna start with you. Because yeah, wow, that's it.

Okay, so you want the backstory? Yeah, definitely do here. Yes.

Absolutely. I can tell you that. Right.

This is not just work for me. It's who I am and I grew up in segregated Boston. Yes segregated Boston where?

There were neighborhoods where I just was not welcome and and I understood that my father. Became the first black state senator in Massachusetts. And that was after having fought to carve out districts were even someone of color.

It was even possible for them to be elected. Right. And so I had first I had front row seats to my father fighting for Equity fighting for seat at the table voice changing laws, right so that people could have access to better jobs housing Healthcare.

You name it? Right? So this is these are the types of conversations.

I had at my dinner table every day. It was the life that I lived. I was really immersed in Justice really and so that continued to carry over into just who I am and along my career whether or not this was my exact focus in my career.

I always carved out regardless of the organization. I was with some kind of initiative where we focused on diversity Equity inclusion because understood it from a systemic level how systems how organizations were created in most times not with women in mind not with people of color in mind not with people with disabilities in mind not with people from the lgbtq plus communities in mind and so Really getting at the root of it and when I when I talked a little bit earlier. I talked about you know starting with that Equity piece and that's a part of sort of taking apart.

How did we construct this organization? What do our policies look like? Even things that many of us might take for granted like family leave or how you build families.

And is there support around that? So that's that's how I I came to this. It is my passion.

It's it's who I am and that makes it gives me the fuel to continue to you know piece by piece pick it apart and try to create those environments. That are inclusive for everyone and and I work at a global organization and that is not a one-size-fits-all inclusion diversity and even Equity looks different depending upon Where You Are. Great.

Hey Derek, you mentioned right off the top that. You know this whole thing you're doing is share and a lot of what you're involved it. It's not even in your main.

Mainframes the wrong way in your main kind of thing or what you do at work, which is in marketing and so forth. What what what's driving it in for it? What's driving that for you?

Yeah, absolutely. Right Alan and I have been a member of the Mainframe project for the last couple of years. But actually if you throughout my whole career, in fact, if you cut me in half, it will just say Cobalt in the ring in around the middle.

And so I've never been too far detached from the language in whatever form my role has taken me but what's interesting in the last couple of years because of the work we've been attempting to do to evangelize and expands the value of the cobal language into the open Mainframe community and and more broadly. And it it became quite clear quite quickly. Perhaps not surprising me.

That the people that we were talking with the people that we were gaining access to look like a fairly overwhelmingly white male fraternity. And was personally quite disappointing especially given the people I was working with in my immediate vicinity was a reason be diverse group. We started looking at it.

We started doing some research. Now bearing in mind back in the day cobal the language in was invented by ladies. Gene Summit Grace Hopper and a few others and you know came together the first technicians.

Before it was even called it the first technicians the first computer programmers was a generation of women. So something's gone wrong along the way something has gone horribly a Miss such that the inequality and the unconscious bias that that Society has permitted. Has has manifested itself as this this highly skewed set of ratios in the tech industry and that interested me to the extent that I thought if we're going to do something about it in the open Mainframe project.

We need to be active and everybody needs to be active and and you might you might have noticed. I am a white male. So I'm coming from the community that to a certain extent.

Should be sharing a lot of the burden of responsibility to finding your resolution here and not sitting quietly in the background saying well, good luck everybody. I hope it works out. And and so I wanted to take a more active role and I'm working with some very very passionate people around me who have encouraged me and and coached me along the way actually and and I found out some incredible truths along the way about the diversity and inclusion challenge.

So, you know, I just wanted to be part of the team was able to tell the story. I love it. You know Genie looks like she might have some network problems.

She'll be jumping back kid. But until she did until she does. I want to expand a little bit on that Derek.

You know, I have a friend of mine Olivia Rose. She's a seesaw. Because I come from the security side of things and we have a very similar look this is not a Mainframe issue.

Right this Edition. We see throughout it. We see throughout Society.

You know I come from segregated New York Charlotte. I don't know how old I'm probably older than you because you look a lot younger than me, but We had this problem in New York. I lived that problem in New York, right and Off camera, we can talk about but anyway.

Would Olivia wrote in LinkedIn today? I thought really it struck home with me, which is not all white males are to blame here. All white males are bad because I think part of what we got to watch out for is that whole patriarchy thing and and it's evil and it's rotten to the corn it needs to be overturned.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we take every all white males heads off either right? There are plenty of men like you Derek who are committed. To helping make this situation better who are committed to diversity and equality.

There are plenty of organizations that have a lot of white men in them. Who who go for that? I'm not saying everyone's perfect.

I'm not you know there certainly. There's certainly a lot of work that needs to get done. But you got to pick your friends where you can and you don't throw out all those good apples with the bad apples.

it if I may Alan I think sure that that exactly Where we were focusing on you know, how systemic is this an issue and culturally, you know, what's the attitude across these groups? Um because I think as we were talking about off camera this, you know, if you're going to cause significant change, whatever it may be you need everybody on site you're going to need the whole village to Rally around it. com.

It's all about White men do they feel left out of diversity inclusion programs? And why should we should care? It's it's worth a read that the study talked about something like 40% of all surveyed white males in that report regard diversity is extremely important.

So a very high quotient of those responding adamantly in support of you know doing something about the challenge but within the same sample 70% seven zero. Said they felt left out. of the EI initiatives and I'm going to quote the article here.

I've just got a written down in front of me. The reason they gave was they feel like they are being and I quote blamed for the current state of affairs or they are being shamed for having the Privileges they have Which is a you know, an unsettling statistic. And and and tells us that there's a way to go in terms of I think engaging in the right way and finding ways for the whole Community to work together.

Now it the article didn't go on to explain or or indeed assess. Whether or not that what that was a fair statement or not, the 70% is there for all to see but that Gap needs to be bridged. And so pulling these sessions together as we're doing this week at share.

And we'll talk about this to well frankly. Anyone will listen because I think it's that important. We want to look at diversity from the perspective of the white male to get more white males inside the tents to engage in the right way with these programs which are already up and running and already very successful.

But to give it the volume and and support that I think surely it's going to need to be truly successful. Absolutely Derek. If you don't mind loggy while we've got her I've got to go to Genie.

I'm sorry. We didn't get a chance for you to tell you talk about your passion and your story. So let's hear it.

Yeah, first up a little bit in what they're just said I will say as I mentioned earlier, you know being the a founder of a female IT company is very unusual in and of itself unfortunately, but I will tell you I have had more support encouragement receive more emails by far from men over women thanking me and and saying that they have three daughters and they appreciate what I'm doing keep going. So I do find that men are very concerned about and hopeful for the future and our very strong supporters of not only women in it but diversity at large, so they're just to recognize You said there my story as I said, I'm a Native American Heritage. I've only worked in the area of it in my career.

I graduated from college in 1986. So I've been doing this for a long time and throughout my career particularly as I moved up into senior and executive level positions in large corporations in this industry. I was always the only female executive in the room there could be, you know, 20 VPS svps getting together and 19 would be white men and then me So this is just been my life and an area that I'm also concerned about not only for myself as really an aging worker at this point.

You know, I'm practically I'm a minority or protected citizen just an age alone, but for those behind me and that's really a big part of what motivates me is my young nieces and my nephews and those coming up next and trying to to pave a path for them and I will tell you that at virtual Z. Our first product is named Lowe's and Lowe's and was a female Apache Warrior. She was known for her bravery and battle and her fearlessness and there was a lot of concern in my immediate family about, you know, having the first product at my company named after Native American but our CTO Vince Ray is of Native American Heritage as well.

And one of my family members works for the Department of Indian Affairs and I will tell you I was concerned as well and I consulted with him on using a Native American warrior as the product name and he really helped provide some guidance and I think helped us have the courage to move forward in the way that we have. So I think I just come at this from a lot of different angles in my life and and being a woman in it and a bit of a unicorn in that way and then as a female founder as well in the area of it. So so I got an interesting question for this this group here and I think the one thing you all talked really really well.

Yes Alan check your watch on that. I juice. I will you know was the over and under on when you were gonna jump in I want go ahead.

Go ahead. Oh you all talk to your personal stories which are which are extremely touch I mean and they they resonate so much. I've talked with others that were in you know in the space and it's it's just it resonates so much.

But at the same time it often when you're kind of a little bit on this end of it, you know people kind of tend to look at and say oh Jesus was easy the whole time like, you know, you were this person this space and you know, it all just came together and you know, but it's not easy like it's there's battle wounds. There's struggles. There's losing battles.

There are things like that. Um, Help us kind of understand like what what are sort of things like, you know, you really seen as you've been through this journey of driving diversity and inclusion and equality within the groups that you've been where you've kind of just like hit these areas. Like I'm just gonna hit my head against the wall and not I can't get anywhere farther like, you know, am I doing the right thing and how have you got through that?

And whoever wants to start on this question go for it. So I I'd like to I'd like to jump in and link your question kind of to what Derek was talking about earlier, um, white men and white men feeling as if they're left out of the conversation left out of the initiatives and Allen you pointed out not all white men are bad and I think that Really? This work has sort of been skewed.

In that way, I think from the the men that I talk to and I talk to a whole lot of white men. Um, there is a sense of fear as if they are sort of the the target of diversity Equity inclusion. And you know, my conversation goes like this is absolutely not in and yes, we need your help.

It should not be on those who are being marginalized or even oppressed by systems. It shouldn't be solely their work to undo and so it's that the white male Right in the United States and many parts of the world absolutely sit in privilege and have no frame of reference. for those who've been historic historically excluded so we need Your help let's be partners.

Let's be co-conspirators. Right go beyond being an ally where you're just kind of hanging out saying okay give you some encouragement and support. No, let's be in this work together identify the issues and let's change them because I could be in a room with the white man.

I could say the same thing and as he you know, he says repeats it in and all of a sudden people listen and it's just simply because that privilege that he brings to the room. You don't even realize it. Yeah.

Well, that's that's the part you don't You have shoes. right, but look nothing at all political are you but A lot of what you're talking about is driving the whole. Problems we have in this country around political divisions that at the end of the day.

There's a there's a big thing about white men feeling threatened somehow by this kinds of stuff that we're gonna have more women in charge that we're gonna have more people of color in charge that we're gonna be a more diverse society and it scares the bejesus at it. I don't want to curse online. It scares the heck out of them, right and So we're gonna leave politics out but this but this is an issue, right?

Certainly. It's an issue and And quite frankly, even if white men are in a majority, they're a sizable enough minority where you need some cooperation and inclusion and buy-in and they got to be part of this if it's going to succeed right you you you can't be a rebel Warrior all by yourself and take this on you got to build coalitions here. And and I think that's an important piece of it, right?

It's building a coalition of the Willing a coalition of the people who say I may not understand it. But I know it's there. I just I don't live it but I know it's there and I'm willing to do something about it Derek.

That sounds kind of where kind of where you are with it it is it is Allen and if I may I think I mean The point about the report was it was a worryingly high number of how many people feel left out. So the question really, you know, the question that everyone should be posing to themselves is what are we going to do about that? You know, what's the what's the hack?

I don't want to give too much away of what I'm going to present this week. But what's the hack for the average white male? To go.

Oh, well, I get it. I can get involved with that. I can buy into that.

And it's not particularly complex. It it does fundamentally oil down to accepting. That an existing belief system the most people's way of looking at the world.

Might need a reset. And because we all carry around with us levels of unconscious bias. potentially more than just that but certainly unconscious bias and and for you know for many organizations that's it's a mandatory course that you have to go on nowadays and it's only been implemented in the recent past but it's quite I opening to see just how many preconceived notions and ideas and behaviors.

You can pull yourself up on nowadays and and that of colleagues and and that for me has been a watershed moment in the recent past where we've been able to identify just just very basic behavioral patterns. We see in everybody. Not just white males, but obviously that's going to be an area of particular Focus where we can say to ourselves.

Well, we we need to get over those microaggressions. We get it need to get over those Affinity biases or those Halo biases where people are just gravitating towards people who look and saying a bit like them, you know, we need to get through all of those things and that's that. Is that the heart of any scalable solution You know, John.

Meaning a sharara scars. They know the fact that they are where they are at this point in their lives. They've had to overcome they've had a persevere.

Right, but I read a lot of stories recently about the American dream as the American dream died. Right in the American dream used to be something like you get to own a house and you live a middle class life and you go on vacation. That's not really the American dream.

American dream was that your kids have a better life than you? right and Genie, you said it you're doing this what I'm you would I graduated college in '81. So I'm a little ahead of you.

We're done. We're done our careers. There's a lot more behind us than there is in front of us.

This is about the Next Generation. This is about your nieces and your daughters and your sons. And and whoever right this is this is about paying it forward.

And and so I'd like to we we probably have maybe 10 minutes left. We'll go over today. It's okay.

What are we doing? What are we doing? You talked about some organizations Derek you're involved.

Let's hear specifically now and and if it's Mainframe Focus great if it's not also great, but let's hear what do we doing to help this next generation? Maybe I can talk to that a little bit. Um As I mentioned we were talking earlier about two years ago.

I called Greg latko at broadcom. I Was preparing for an interview as a female founder of it organization software company and I was researching de and I programs through Mainframe companies and I found so many really impressive programs where there's executive sponsorship. There's significant funding the results were impressive but during my research I realized it was too hard for me to find out about these programs.

And so I picked up the phone and called Greg lotcoat broadcom who I really didn't know very well. I think sometimes people when I say that think I'm just a friend of Greg's and I called my friend. I had only met him once I really run my hands for a long time before I got up the courage to call him and and ask him to work with me to do something to make these programs more visible and accessible in our industry specifically here in the Mainframe industry.

So I finally got up enough courage and I called Greg I said, hey, you know we met once before my name is Jeannie glass and introduce myself and said, you know, I'm researching Dee and I initiatives in the Mainframe industry. I'm finding them. I know you Have the Vitality program at broadcom and there's many other programs out there, but they're really best kept secrets.

What if we all came together in our industry, we would still keep our separate programs. But what if we all came together and had an initiative around de and I in the Mainframe industry went our voice resonate louder and he was fantastic. He immediately networked with his colleagues at IBM and Andy Eunice at Rocket the founder of rocket and the four of us started in initiative now known as making our strong Community stronger sir, and I work together on that initiative and Our first session was a zoom-based conversation around de and I in the Mainframe industry now A couple of years ago as I said and we didn't really know what the interest would be.

But I think about a hundred people registered about 50 people showed up and two years into it. Our most recent webinar was on the topic of neuro diversity really recalled it diversity. You can't see in the Mainframe industry and that was inspired by our listeners because the attendees and registrants have been increasing year over year over year at our virtual events, and we had a record studying attendance on our July webinar on diversity.

You can't see and I'm here at share in Columbus here with Derek and we are holding a reception. For making strong communities stronger tomorrow night and there's just under a thousand attendees registered for the entire share conference here in Columbus and 454 people have registered for the making strong Community stronger reception tomorrow night, which is nearly half of the conference. Largely quite honestly a white male audience.

So a lot to the points that Derek is talking about in the important work that he's doing in this area specific to white men as well. We're all in this together and that nearly half of this conference wants to come to us reception on De and I in the Mainframe, I think really speaks to how hungry people are for this discussion how they want to roll their sleeves up and participate actively in the discussion and it's it's just been More than I ever could have imagined. I will tell you when I open up the registration list last night.

I my jaw dropped when I saw the number of people that have responded and in a really great way, so I just think this is a really important topic. I appreciate John and Allen you putting this conversation together to help us, you know, expand the conversation including white males and Derek appreciate the work that you're doing and Sarah I couldn't agree more with the comments that you made as well. So, thank you.

Sure. Yes, so one of the things that that we're really looking at and that I am really eager to interrupt is this whole broken wrong? It's this phenomenon for women on that sort of career ladder where they are not making it even to the management level at the same rates as men and so at Rocket in particular really trying to see what is what's happening here.

So we're we've instituted some leadership programs specifically in development programs specifically targeted toward women at you know, the earlier stages and their career and in mid career to really see how we can move women beyond that and this is not just because women aren't ready what we're doing. Time simultaneously is interrupting that bias among managers. Why why aren't women being you know, our men just more prepared at that point.

I mean, that's a question mark right, which I don't believe is true. Right so allowing women to have more visibility more access that sometimes is created with a male relationships sort of organically. And so that's that's one of the things that we're doing.

One thing that we're launching really soon is also looking at other underrepresented populations at Rocket and focusing on mentorships last slash sponsorship those who don't have access and opportunity to Folks at different levels of the organization to really get that exposure and some guidance. I was you know talking with the fellow Rocketeer the other day is people sometimes don't know what they don't know. They need to see Role Models, right?

They need to even understand, um how to initiate conversation maybe with a more senior leader in the organization so they can know what they're doing and what they're capable of so those are two really concrete things that we're doing at Rocket and also in that hiring process To interrupt the bias there into show, you know recruiters and hiring managers. If we are really looking to have a more diverse Workforce, what does that mean? When you're when you're interviewing even what does your Job description look like right what words are you using are people self-selecting out before we can even interview them.

So those are some of the concrete things that we're doing at Rocket for folks who are coming up in into our organization. I love it. I feel obligated here to tell you something.

We're doing a text strong. We for the last two plus years. We sponsored something called engineering the change.

Scholarship, we work with a local coding school here in Boca Raton, Florida called Boca code and we sponsor at least one up to three. candidates Every Spring and fall, right so twice a year a cohort and we you know, there's a whole Good. Well, you have to write it not saying everything apply for the scholarship.

We pick one two three winners. Underrepresented communities so over the last three years we have about eight or nine. Folks that we've done this with mostly women.

Being here in South Florida. We tend to get a lot of folks from Haitian Heidi Dominican Republic. Do we have one Ukrainian woman actually won a few years ago, but it's been You know and we help them with their job fair and they become a full stack developers.

It's probably one of the most gratifying things I do here other than this show, you know, I it really has paid dividends in so many ways for us we get so much out of it. We actually this past year. We filmed the whole 12-week cohort that these people went through and we have it up as a well just episode one is up right now as a kind of reality show but it's really interesting to see this in action.

Look as I think I said in the beginning one of the things I'm proud about being in the tech industry is we do At least you know, is it Naval gazing? I don't know but at least we we acknowledge this is an issue and we we have terrific people like you are. right and more who are who are hitting this and in cybersecurity where I spent 20 plus years we have similar kinds of Programs and and people were trying to do something.

Here, is there a lot more to do. Yeah, go. um, but It's this is an ongoing process of learning.

Um, so we started at making strong Community stronger with virtual Z IBM rocket software broadcom. But today we have seven organizations in this industry sponsoring including open Mainframe project. Thank you.

John and May and everybody BMC most recently Tech channel. So organizations are really investing in this area and what I really enjoy about it besides the You know 450 people registering to come to the session and and and feeling that energy around this space that's generated is my own personal learning and Shara is an expert in the area of De and I her counterpart at BMC Wendy Rentschler is on our team now. She's an expert in the area of Dee and I and it is amazing Derek learning about your work.

It's amazing to learn what's going on and to have experts like this bringing their knowledge and and forever challenging me in terms of my own unconscious bias. Because just when I think I'm doing a good job of really catching myself, I kept myself again and it's just an ongoing, you know, I just don't know that we ever really it doesn't feel like there's an end game. It feels like it's just an evolution and we need to just keep this conversation going.

Absolutely guys, unfortunately, I need to end this particular conversation that because we're overtime. You know one of the best open Mainframe discussions we've had here on our series I'd love maybe we can run it back again in a couple months May and Jody are produces. If you can make it happen John.

I was only giving your hard time. I I need you to participate in here. Otherwise, you just an empty video screen on the Hollywood Squares board here, right?

We we need you but Shara Genie Derek. Thank you so much for really opening up a little bit with in front of our audience here today, right and and giving them a little bit of your own stories and a little bit of bringing a little passion to this important issue. We're going to take a break.

Thank you to all three of you. We're going to be back next month. I'm with another great topic for open name frame.

But until then, this is Alan schemel for the open Mainframe project from Linux Foundation text strong group. We'll speak to you soon.