2023 Predictions – Increased Security and Hands-on Training – The Open Mainframe EP 18

you hi everyone, welcome to the open Mainframe. The open Mainframe is a monthly video series in from Textron TV texture on group in partnership with our good friends at the open Mainframe project part of the Linux Foundation. And once a month we discuss topics relevant to the Mainframe and open Mainframe committee.

That range around education around what's going on in the in the market? A whole great a whole bunch of different topics for those who are not familiar the open Mainframe project. It's actually sort of an umbrella of 20 something different projects and initiatives that all come under this open Mainframe project a project Zoe's probably one of the better known ones a recent devops doesn't winner this past year again for best open Mainframe.

project but there's a whole bunch of other things Beyond Zoe, right and to say it's just Zoe is probably not doing it justice. Speaking of the open Mainframe project rather than introducing him last as I always do I'm going to introduce some first today because it's a new year. My co-hosts for this series is the Ed the executive director of overlay frame.

Project John Murdock, John welcome, Happy New Year. Can't believe what yeah, we're, you know, Happy New Year to you. It's it's yeah, we were talking about it before here episode 18.

It's it just seems like yesterday was episode one and now look where we are. Yeah a year and a half and you can see it John in that our paddle today's made up of folks who have all been on the show in in months past. Yeah, and that I think is the sign of kind of, you know mature video series.

We're here. You know because it's not like we have the same people every month. We have a you know, one of the things our esteemed produces May and Jody do a great job of rotating guests in here and so it It's really a testament, you know, congratulations to you and all the open Mainframe Linux Foundation folks.

Thank you. Very Unity here. Yep.

Speaking of our panel though. Let's introduce them if it's okay with you. I am going to start with the hardest name for me to pronounce and I I try as hard as I can when I mess it up.

I I know you know we please correct me. Don't be shy. She's a Hassan shrinivasan and I probably did better on the last name than the first name.

But go ahead you up. Thank you. Thank you Ellen.

That was that was very good. My name is sudashna srinivasan. I'm here on behalf of the open Mainframe projects Cobalt programming course.

I co-chair that along with my amazing colleague Mike Bauer from broadcom and really looking forward to this conversation in a very very happy New Year to everyone. Happy New Year I don't did you mention Beyond working for open Mainframe? Did you mention your company?

You said? No. Yes, sorry.

So I I work for IBM as an ibmz. Advocacy program manager. So really enjoy working with that Global large community about, you know, bringing Mainframe mainframers together and enabling and you know to them to be able to advocate for this awesome platform as well.

Thank you. IBM appreciates us giving them a mentioned next up joining us from the check Republic. It's yakub.

bother close close enough balhar. Well, hey everyone. Happy New Year, and I'm glad to be here.

I'm here mainly as in my role as a chair of Zoe DSC committee. Apart from that I'm a product owner of within broadcom and I'm responsible for APA mediation there which is one of the key components of Zoe. And I'm looking forward in an exciting here that so we and at the OMP projects has ahead of them.

Excellent, and then our last panel member and I promised I'm going to do my best to get his name, right? Alex Kim Alex, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you parents for naming you Alex. Yes, appreciate it. Well and Alias, but okay.

It's an easier one Alex a little bit about yourself. So yeah many sounds came from IBM. I work for my research.

As Bridges development executive and I joined. A little Foundation open Mainframe project from its Inception. I remember meeting John in Seattle 2015.

I think it was August. And it was great to to meet people with passion about was open-make open source, and the Enterprise Computing which is calling Mainframe and it's been a great journey and I really enjoy because I could meet passionate people about technology and open source and during the open source project. I I could, you know, learn a lot and benefit a lot from it actually and enjoy working with everybody in here and also people who support opening project.

You and thank you for joining us. And thank you. Thank all three of you for all all that you guys do.

You know, this is the second Linux Foundation. Project show that I'm recording today. I didn't want to earlier for the CDF continuous delivery and I think people lose sight of What it means to co-chair?

An open source project like Joey Zoe or co-chair a Cobalt, you know education subgroup or special interest group committees. These aren't paid positions. and they they can really Suck up a lot of your time and passion and and so before we even start thinking thank you to the three of you and thank people watching this out there if you're involved.

Thank you for being involved because the success of groups like The Open Mainframe. are all of our success it may be on the backs of your hard work my panel members and stuff, but we all benefit from it and it would you know this this whole Cut many tentacled monster that the Linux Foundation has become would not be possible without. Volunteers for the you know for the majority of the positions, so so thank you all.

So let's jump in though to Today's Show, right? It is it's a new year a lot of exciting things going on, but I'm gonna kick us off by asking all of you to kind of searching you crystal ball. A little bit or read the tea leaves or whatever it is you do and tell us kind of what you think.

Are the big stories are the big topics? in the open Mainframe community that we we should be focusing in on as we You know dive into 2023. and you know as I think I spoke off camera.

I was saying project Zoey one. Our devops doesn't award and it's such a I mean look, it's it's well loved well respected. Well supported I think Jacob I'm gonna ask you maybe if you wouldn't mind kicking off then as the project Zoe person there.

Sure, there are a few trends that are obvious and it's gonna be important for so evil in this year. First of them is adoption. Within the last three years, we definitely got through the early majority.

So like we are estimating that between 30 and 50% of the Mainframe customers are at least to some extent using Zoe. This trend is definitely gonna continue and we will see more and more use cases and user stories that will be coming from them. The second topic is the education in curses.

With the amount of people that want to start using so we and integrate Zoe into their work and they work it brings a demand for people that knows how to use it. What does it bring? What are the benefits and also what are the risks associated with using so To make sure that we support all these users we intend to deliver the courses and education curriculum.

That should help them understand. What Zoe is how does it work? How do you work with it?

How do you extend it? What are the key points that you just should know if this is your job? assert topic and I think this is gonna be large for everyone is the security We have already mentioned it security is the key if we fail in a security.

We're just gonna fail as a project. This is something that we can't allow. In this year, we will focus on Improvement and integration of the new tools that are produced by companies like Google or by foundations, like open ssf.

It's supported by many large players in the infrastructure and Enterprise world. And apart from that Zoe became CNA last year. And so this year we intend or we are already publishing our first CVS of the vulnerabilities that we found.

and fixed to make sure that our users and customers are not unservable. for your estimates 50% of Mainframe customers are using Zoe in some form or another or in one way or another. I said between 30 and 50.

There is some amount of uncertainty. It's open source. We don't know of all the users but given the amount of downloads per month that we are seeing given the market that we know the size approximately we are in this stage like we have 150,000 downloads of the vcli.

We have around 80,000 active users of vs code. We have around 300 or 400 tonals of the server side, which means that there is high probability that at least 200 to 300 companies are using so we server side these to some extent. Wow, that's that's fantastic.

Just how long is Project Zoe been out there now? Has been five years. I think it's been five years.

But I'm with only for three years so I can't say 100% certain. It was John. I show you yeah as long 2018.

Yeah, so yeah, we're getting to the five-year mark this summer. I fantastic. That's amazing amazing.

Jacob Jacob, I have a bunch of questions, but If I had to ask you from a features point of view or support point of view, yes security is important. Yes education is important. Is there a killer feature or some support for something on the on the horizon for this year that you think our audience would?

Be interested in it. Yeah on the server side. I would say that it's identity Federation meaning that you could integrate your distributed identity providers such as OCTA or active directory or any other.

With the esm and therefore the Mainframe world. Keeping it safe keeping the all the auditability that you are used to with Mainframe. So this is first one of them and the second one is the handling of multiple CIS plexus.

So if you are infrastructure is sufficiently complex right now handling Zoe and making sure that it's well accessible and highly available across the whole infrastructure is still a bit of a pain point and we intend to provide the tooling and deployment and the infrastructure needed to actually handle like large. Infrastructure places. So if you have tens of since plexus or hundreds of them we intend to figure out a way how to enter them effectively.

excellent That's for the client side. I would say that one of the killer features is that they are actually free killer features for this year. First of them is IntelliJ Explorer that's gonna be LTS.

So for all the developers, mainly I would say Java that are used to working with intelligible IntelliJ to it. They will have the similar or maybe the same capabilities as the ones that are using vs code. The second thing on the client side is the Zoe chat.

this year we want to go to GA and allow you to integrate with tools like and directly communicate and even run some amount of commands directly from chat. Instead of having to go to the Mainframe. And the third thing that's brewing and hopefully will be available.

This year is event management. So basically a tool or service that will allow you easily or in an easier way observe what events are happening on the Mainframe and to use them to integrate it in your overall Enterprise infrastructure. excellent If you I'm I'd like to come back to some of the things that you mentioned Jacob but one thing if some of our other panelists a chance.

Should I sort of red Reds are I got to come up with a nickname for you that I do better sooner. I'd say you're from the Cobalt education committee and look we've spent we've had several shows talking about Cobalt. Kobold around the world Cobalt at universities, you know.

It's the whole thing on it. What do you see in 2023 from where you sit? Um from where I sit and you know, if I were to right now just wear Cobalt hat.

I absolutely see growth and continued growth. I should actually say and it is evident from some of the numbers we are seeing right and what better way to predict than to be based on the data that we see we launched the cobal programming courses latest published latest version in somewhere. Mid-December 2022.

And in less than a month, we've had over 500 downloads in total of all the various chapters, right? So what that tells us is there is that continued interest there is a community that is continuing to come back and learn and there there could be a mix right? It could be new Learners It Go be Learners who've done some of our content but coming back for more because we are constantly adding Advanced topics and Jacob talked about Zoe and last year was big for Zoe with the version two that launched some time in the summertime frame.

So we leveraged are the summer mentorship program again. Another oil open Mainframe project program to have our mentee work on bringing in that Zoe version 2 into our cobal programming course, right? Yeah could talk about education and I just wanted to break point out that our COBOL programming course leverages Zoe leverages vs code.

So right there, you know, there's that Synergy and a closed sort of you know, Sister project working together type thing Yahoo. Probably a lot of the Zoe downloads is from COBOL. You know, the Cobalt course needs you to download.

No JS and have Zoe and vs code again going back to the point that we want to make sure that from the developer from a learner's perspective. Learning COBOL should be like just learning any other programming language, right? So the focus should be on learning the language and not so much all of the tooling and whatever makes makes for a unique environment that it might be in which is which was our sort of Building or the beginning principles that we built this course on which is why it's with vs code with Zoe really making it easy on our Learners.

So I see pretty the the crystal ball tells me we're going to continue to grow we're gonna have a really strong community of Learners who are going to come back more. And so that definitely is top of mind for us. What in 2023 will we add to the cobal programming course another project again within open Mainframe Cobalt check is a project that we're looking to really work closely with because that gives us the ability to build a debugging and testing chapter within Koval.

Programming course where we can bring in Cobalt checks, so lots of fun and exciting things planned for 2023. I look forward to our community really jumping in and diving in and helping us out. Agreed 2023 the year of cobal again, right Alan.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean John we've done as I said, we probably did three or four shows last year around different COBOL initiatives.

And and so for those people in the if you know, you know, right, you know that if you know, you know kind of thing we see that on social media, if you know about Cobalt then you know that Cobalt is Alive and Kicking and growing. Alex I wanted to come to you though and give you a chance to talk a little bit about what what's important from where you sit. well Thank you, Alan.

And I think it you know, was yakuben starts on out made a great point about what the key projects that OMP and also Zoe is doing I personally haven't very interested in two things one is I know John announced last year in Olympia Summit that broadcom donated Zee machine. To open the project. I am very excited to see that, you know having that it standing up and give a life to every developers that participating OMP and also some of the newcomers that will join OMP project from any other open source project.

From Linux Foundation that could be like a Gateway or intersection of different, you know type of open source project coming into Mainframe. I think it will open the doors to open a big door to like everybody who has interested in a large systems. I'm very excited about that opportunity.

And also the other one is application modernization working group that recently started. I see, you know, lots of discussions in application modernization working group. And also it is a very key theme many Enterprise users.

Not only the Legacy application the application monitorization means, you know sustainability. How can you make your applications stay longer and stay up to date and stay current with the data that you can create every day. I think two things are very excited to see happening to see here.

I think those two products will be very important for all of us. absolutely, the I just want to make sure that the application modernization and then there's the Mainframe modernization. Project with is it Misty John?

Who runs that one? So those two different they're they're sort of one in the same. Yeah, actually they've brought in their scope.

I think when they first launched it was specific Mainframe modernization and and you know power of community they came together and said really this is a modernization topic. I'm not just Mainframe alone so sure. You know that that is a again people passionate and doing great work there John.

If you don't mind, I don't mean to put you on the spot and embarrass you but put your little grand vizier of you know had on and tell me what you know, from where you sit. What do you think the 2023 big stories are well, I'm gonna go in three in one of them to copy off of Alex. We're gonna get this during Mainframe turned on we were excited to announce it.

We were excited at the generosity of broadcom to donate it on the generosity of Marist and you know working across our members and you know working on raising web revenues to make this happen and that's to me that's my number one priority. That's the board's number one priority because it's it's sitting there in a box and it's doing nobody good until we get it flipped on. Um, so I think that's that's sort of like the the tangible thing.

I think pass there I look at um, I look at our mentorship area which has really grown over the last couple of years and to a point. We're really focusing on putting some staff resources behind it. Because I mean last year alone we have over 500 applicants and which is fantastic the biggest bottleneck we have is you know mentors and mentee or mentors to help with the work and you know, just getting through that many people and finding great talent and some so often with that many people, you know, even if we were able to, you know, bring on 50 mental mentees that's still 450 that get turned away and these are sharp students.

And so that's gonna be continuing to grow and I think also an area we're gonna continue to iterate to figure out like, how how can we best continue to extend that program and I just see that continual link to grow and I think the third part in an element, I don't know if you're right. I think you're alluded to this a little bit in the pre-show that we're we're hitting some economic uncertain times ahead of us. We've we all know that there's a lot of layoffs and it's hitting the tech industry.

I think especially hard mostly because it's an industry that's grown very rapidly over the last couple years and we're starting to regress back to sort of those pre-pandemic levels, which we're still a lot of folks in a lot of investment, but that's also a lot of folks that are going to be out of jobs that just really not good and I hear about companies constantly, you know every day it seems like there's a mass layoff happening. What's really interesting and Ellen? You probably have good perspective because you talk to a lot of different open source projects and Foundations is when these sort of economic uncertain times start happening is when companies start looking back at their software portfolio their development and things like that and they start to think of like is there things we can drive into open source as a way for us to still continue to innovate and drive to Market faster, but do it at reduce costs and leverage that larger community.

So I'm expecting some opportunities this year to open up of newer maybe even some larger scale projects over the years that certainly open source in general, but I'm really really kind of throwing the crystal ball that we're gonna see some of the Mainframe space here as well because If this is economic uncertainties and you see companies double down on open source, and and we're in a great position to help be that home for it. Of course the loss of double down on what works what's tried and true. All right, they'll have less of an appetite for risk.

And and that probably bodes. Well, no one's gonna be rushing to throw their Mainframe out. Right?

I mean the investment in it the performance of it and everything else now, it's not the time to be Experimenting on that that being said I would like to put it a little bit in perspective because you're right John, you know, I said you all sit in different chairs. I sit in a different chair too my view I speak to. A lot of vendors a lot of tool makers a lot of end users and I think it's important to put something in perspective with all of the bad news.

We've we've heard around layoffs. Look at layoffs. for the last two three months even total tech tech industry layoffs Right up to yesterday.

I think who was yesterday. Google was the last one was Friday or whatever, right? Total amount of layoffs are probably somewhere between 55 and 65,000 layoffs.

Now, that's not a trivial number. That's 65,000 people looking for a job 65,000 around the world. However When you look at the amount of jobs that were added.

Let's just say since covid from 2020 through the end of 2022. That's 65,000 number is rather trivial to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that were added and and for a lot of companies quite frankly, if you look at their head count and their growth 2021 may prove to be a bit of a blip because it was covid inflated. But it's not that they're going back to pre-20 levels.

They're growing at a pretty steady clip from if you took 2021 out of the out of the And of the you know line graph or what have you because 2021 clearly looks like a blip now when you when you know with hindsight. But that being said this is nowhere in comparison. com which I'm old enough to tell you.

com Bubble Burst so though, we we are probably you know, we're seeing the correction. We'll see if it's a recession whatever it's definitely gonna be choppy Economic Times. There's still a lot of head count and jobs open especially for people with skills.

And I think that's why it's important like the COBOL. Project. Hey man there a job.

You want a job you get a job in there right now Securities another area. There are still many many security. You know headcount Rex Open for people who have skills.

All these mainframes that people are using I mean Cobalts one one language, but thanks to Zoe. We we see so many. Other kinds of positions as people.

You know. settle down and and continue their Mainframe Expansion or their Mainframe uses they're going to need those those positions in there. So.

while I think a healthy dose of realism is is warranted. I don't want to scare people into thinking. You know batten down the hatches.

I don't think we're about down the hatches in 2023, you know, but I'm a half glass kind of got half glass half full kind of guy to begin with right and so I always think it things will get better there. John I I wanted it and I'm gonna throw it out to all all three of you as well as John I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact of what the mission of organizations like the open Mainframe Linux foundation. And these other their daughter foundations are they're great for managing projects, right ownership management of projects.

They're great forgetting industry to cooperate. Competition co-opetition as they they might call it. They're great for all these interest groups and cigs and so forth.

With a really shine is education. Right and and obvious from our panel here about that. But you know, it's such an important piece of the charter to educate.

You know our audience out here whether you're a student just coming into the industry or wanting to come into the industry or you're maybe someone who lost their job at one of these, you know, big tech companies that these layoffs. Or you just someone who wants to you know brought in their skill set. The open Mainframe project is a place.

It's not just Cobalt. Right the Cobalt's a big part of it. So Sudan sir, and I apologize, but I know you're directly responsible for COBOL and mentorship but can you talk maybe about some of the other education initiative that are underway to help people with things like Zoe and and so forth.

So I think I mentioned the couple of other projects that are part of open Mainframe project. Right like Cobalt check of course Jacob is here speaking about Zoe. Alex is your representing, you know outside of COBOL open Mainframe education, right?

That is a project within open Mainframe project trying to bring Mainframe education through this open source, and you know Alan you talked about skills and you pointed to cobal a couple times and the word that is very important and I think in 2023, we should continue to absolutely use it is and it's a very small word but a very important one because that's a lot of one of our guiding principles within the cobal programming course, which is ADD Cobalt to your Tech toolkit. It's not an either or right. You don't have to be Java and JavaScript or python or cobal.

And COBOL helps you build that skill set which is, you know, absolutely relevant in the marketplace. It is something that's being looked for. It's a key skill.

It's a strategic skill. So add it to your Tech toolkit, right similar to the hybrid Cloud message, which is it is cloud and Mainframe. It's not an either or So I think you know going into 2023 and is a very important word to keep in mind and you know, these are all really good projects here within open Mainframe project where it gives everyone an opportunity to learn to skill up and really differentiate themselves.

So I think that's something our viewers here today, you know can definitely become part of this community at open Mainframe project as Learners as contributors and you know grow from there. It's a great year to be able to scale up continue to absolutely Alex we hear you're the non-cobol education expert right? Let's talk a little bit about it.

Yeah, well. I always enjoy talking to students and learn a lot from students because they are the ones that who knows what's the greatest and latest in in their minds, right? And then the future of the developers or current developers.

I I just read the LFX mentorship program report and I am so proud that I open main printing project is the third largest, you know contributor of we went to a program after cncf and you know, Connolly cell right? We are about eight percent of overall entry program. And the students that joining this mentorship program.

Remains most of time in Mainframe technology and still contributing, you know One Mentor that I worked with a mentee. I worked with from Nigeria So Lisa Lee is still contributing working on this zebra project. He is the main contributor main developer was actively looking for more contributors on our project the incubation project under Zoe and it's a similar to many other mentorship program that OMP has you know, they they come in to either learn about Mainframe and Find about what they can do with large systems, then they kind of finish their program and then get more passionate about the platform and then stay in the platform and become an advocate Mainframe and contribute again.

I think it's a really good, you know positive, you know cycle of life and and circle of life too and and we grow our community. I think it's very healthy environment for open source Community, too. Very positive, you know influence to students and also Educators that keeping eye on what we do.

In this community a lot of professors and teachers there. There are seeking some information about this large systems that they can bring back to their, you know, universities community colleges, too. fair enough Guys, I want to Pivot a little bit with the time we have left on today's show and I want to focus on security.

I can tell you here that a text Shawn. We are hearing loud and clear from our devops folks our Cloud native communities digital transformation that security is job one it's that we've always said security is important, but we mean it now right we're not we're not kidding and you know already this year. We've we've seen You know new breach stories new security stories.

Jacob I'm gonna ask you to kick it off here because you know How important is security you mentioned it. I know when you spoke earlier, but let's focus in on security with project Zoe and the rest of the open Mainframe projects. as well So I would say there are two ways how you look at the security and one of them is about how do you make sure that whatever you produce is secure?

And this is around. What are your policies? What are your practice is with your auditing them with tools do you use?

And I would say it's very important part maybe even the more important part of the whole process of securing anything. And then the second part is the security as like operational security meaning even if you have something that's actually well done. That's secure by default that was developed using all of the newest practices projects that are following the devsecopes practices very well.

And still it's possible to attack them via the people the human element is always the weakness of always one of the weaknesses of the systems. And so it's around figuring out. How do we make sure that we understand what the data and what SSV own?

How do we make sure that we understand who should have access and that they are doing just the things that they should be doing and the second part is about like observability, which is another topic that I didn't mention initially but it's gonna be more and more about integrating the Mainframe world into the observability solutions as it kind of is an requirement for implementing zero trust architecture, which is where we are going with panel members any Follow on thoughts to that. I was just gonna add I mean security is always, you know important top of mind. It has been right Alan.

The other one is also automation. I think automation is top of mine in this industry specifically Jacob talked about observability sorted touched upon, you know AI Ops which is where sort of observability also falls in so I think that's a that's you know outside of just a little Cobalt project that I'm you know, leading within open Mainframe. I think from a bigger picture.

I think that's definitely a space to Keep our eyes on and you know focus on because that is where growth is for 2023 looking ahead. And also, you know in terms of security too on AI Ops or Automation in space. There are other the Luna Foundation product called open ssf we are, you know.

Detecting with you know those group I'm actually participating in one of the working group in ssf standing for, you know, open source security, you know Foundation. They have something called secure software supply chain, which you could mentioned about devops pipeline where there's open source, especially these days many isps or some companies using software. In the maximum level 95% of the component in software application is built with open source.

So it is very important to make sure the libraries and packages you're using in your open source development or your software is secure from the time you call from the GitHub. From the open public, you know resources to the actual internal development and the deployment in the server. So whole life recycle are secure software supply chain is very very important.

It was very hot last year. It will be more important to see if it could be see a lot of attacks even in the GitHub they announced some you know abilities last week. So it will be very important and also, you know an ideal.

Oh artificial intelligence assisted operations automations. He's also linked to the security because not traditional Access Control authentication. It's important but also some robustness of the AI model is going to be very important such as a chat boss right that use everybody knows about the check GPT.

It's very very hot, but he's For someone to mention it. Okay. I know right you cannot have a cold without a touchy feet these days.

So people can exploit this AI by saying something pre-prompting some questions then bypass some you know regulations, right? It is a key topic these days how we can make sure those automations AI assisted process. It can be Secure which means you know making robust.

So that that's very very interesting topic to watch. Absolutely. I think it is.

Jacob I'm gonna come back to you. We don't have a lot of time but this whole chat GPT thing is just obviously blowing up right any implications there for project Zoe that kind of jump out of you. Well, I would love to use it to generate the education courses.

I don't want to write them by hand. you Apart from that we already know that there was some over that was written by the GPT. So there will be more attacks in the future because to tools like this will be used to generate attack vectors to explore the code and find the vulnerabilities and use them.

so it's a double-edged source. There are definitely things that could improve and help us and that are definitely think about the GPA that will hurt us. Should I had sooner sensor Center?

I mean look, it could really help an education program right? Because like Jakob says you can write courses you could I mean you could really make it easier but it can really you know, we've already seen students taking tests using judge EBT stuff. What's your feelings on that?

Um, yeah, I think Jacob nailed it, right? It is a double-edged sword. It can be used for good but that's you know good is not all what this world is all about.

So there's always going to be the Bad actors that will that will leverage it for other purposes as well. So I think you know it brings to brings home the point that security is going to be that much more important for us to keep on and everything we do is going to have to be underpinned by security. So how is it that we can you know offset or such bad actors who might you know leverage chat GPT is what we need to stop thinking about.

You know, how do we get two steps ahead? for over John I was gonna give you the last word and we'll wrap up. Yeah 2023.

It's been on, you know, a couple weeks in we're already off to a tumultuous start for sure, you know, it's gonna be It's gonna be really exciting because you know, the thematics around security observe. Really, I like a lot of that Ray I comes in it's it's all gonna be kind of done. I feel like within the shadow of where economic climate climate is and we've often seen in times like this is when there I think retrenching and doing what works and things like that Alan your spot on but you also see a ton of folks just saying, you know, let's let's double down and do something interesting like let's let's use this time is is an opportunity and I'm really excited with that looks like and I think we have great technologists across the globe on it, but I'm really excited by these three technologists because they're driving some of the most interesting things that are happening in Mainframe right now, and it's gonna be a cool year.

Absolutely. I You know what? We does.

That was I think it's an Irish proverb you live in interesting times. Well, I I think we certainly are going to be in some interesting times. Anyway panelists.

Thank you so much for joining John and I kicking off twenty twenty three with our open Mainframe video series. I hope to see each of you at some point maybe during the year as we continue exploring New Frontiers here. And and we see how this plays out John it's gonna be an interesting.

Yeah looking forward to you and I kind of sitting here and watching you play out. That's right. It's gonna be it's gonna be a fun ride, but we've got we've got some great people that are in some smart people driving.

So I'm I'm excited what comes out of it. Absolutely. All right, that's gonna be a wrap here on episode.

Eight and I believe of the open Mainframe project. We'll be back next month many thanks to to May Allen. and and Jody for producing this show every month for us many thanks to the Linux Foundation the whole open Mainframe team and thanks most of all you watching this because we hope Find it interesting and and worth your time and your time is valuable regardless of the economic Times this Alan schervel for textrung TV.

We're out. Thank you.