Observability and SRE Leaders – Tech.Strong.Women EP 18

Hi everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Textron women where we feature amazing women doing amazing things in Tech. I'm Jody Ashley executive producer here at Tech strong and I'm here with my co-host Tracy Reagan Creator and CEO of deploy Hub.

And you know in our free time she's busy working with the Linux Foundation where she sits on the board of the open ssf and the CDF technical oversight committee. Before I introduce today's guests. I want to give you a quick update on what's Happening Here at techstrong registration is open for devops on ramp on May 4th speaker submissions are open and we always love sponsors registration is also available for Techstrong's devops connect devsecops day at rsac in San Francisco on April 24th.

Be sure to look for us at the Moscone West on broadcast alley where we will be live streaming all week. So stop by and say hi. com and be sure to tune in to text on TV every day for amazing interviews and content.

All right, Tracy what's on your mind today? So over the weekend, my in-laws called us frantic because they got hit with ransomware. Ooh, and you know what?

I'm thinking. Oh, my goodness ransomware is so scary especially for you know older people to have to deal with and I'm thinking, you know, they just just don't know enough to prevent ransomware. And so I thought I'd do a little digging to see if there was something happening out there in the ransomware world and sure enough.

There was I call a rash a ransomware attacks over the last week and they actually were able to according to Reuters. They broke into the Florida Supreme Court and several and several universities. Apparently, the only the only brought home about 88,000 which is a drop in the bucket considering to our past ransomware problems.

This was a specific problem around VMware and VMware has put out a fix and said hey update your systems if you're using VMware. But I just thought it was a worthy thing to talk about because we were all worried about a balloon floating over our heads of time and people were being hit with ransomware attacks which are still real and still a problem and people still should be looking out for it. And you know, we had Jamie Thomas on a call.

She's with IBM a high level exact and she said something that I'll never forget. She said we can do a whole lot to secure our software but it's the human that opens the door. So how do we continually fight this this these sneaky ways of ransomware taking over our machines and making a hell of a weekend for older couples who have no idea how to fix it.

So that's my newsworthy tip of today is to check out the ransomware attacks. It hit us last week including potentially this the Florida Supreme Court, which according to Reuters they did not respond. Wow.

That's crazy to me. It's The Florida Supreme Court, that's kind of scary. Yeah, it's can hit anybody.

It's not just you know, Grandma and Grandpa, right? Absolutely, but you know the grandma and grandpa part is is pretty scary because it's you know, they're the ones that are being targeted because they're the ones who are most likely to be fooled into oh your child or someone in your contact list is reaching out click on it. You know, that's that's real.

Well, thanks Trace. All right, we're ready to get rolling here. I want to introduce you guys to our guests today Adriana vallela and Anna Margarita Medina a couple of my newly found Pals who've been partnering with us on the SRE show and they're both working at lightstep these days.

So I'm gonna let them introduce himself and tell you a little bit about them Adriana you want to start? Yeah. Sure.

So my names Adriana villela or Adriana villala. I'm from Rio De Janeiro Brazil, so I often pronounce, but I've been in Canada for like 33 years now, so I I just Size my name a lot easier to deal with. I'm a developer Advocate at lightstep.

This was my first developer. Advocacy role. But I feel like I've been preparing for it.

My whole life. Most of my career has been in Java development like for 16 years moved over to the devops side of things and fell in love and everything's been just trending towards like the devops SRE observability side of things and you know, I've blogged a lot about all sorts of tech things and and that's what that's what got me my developer Advocate rule at lightstep. So here I am happy to be here.

It's All right, Anna, you're not you're up. Yes. Hi all my name's Ana Margarita Medina.

Also representing Latinos. I was born and raised in Costa Rica. My parents are mikaragua.

And I now reside in San Francisco, California. I work as a staff developer Advocate over lights up and I've been working in the SRE space for a few years prior to my current role. I was doing Chaos engineering at a startup called Gremlin and parts to that.

I was an SRE at Uber and doing Cloud infrastructure and developer platform there and prior to finding the space of devops and SRE and infrastructure. I was actually one of those developers that just focused on code. So I started out in front end moved on to back and mobile applications shortly off there and it worked on my machine and it was someone else's problem.

So it was kind of fun to end up in SRE and be like call for systems, like that's not what I it kind of nice to bring a full circle nowadays and be able to like talk about when I was just a front-end developer and didn't care about anything else who know kind of looking at a whole system and finding ways to make it more reliable and I work in the open source Community with cncf projects such as Captain lemon tree. And that's where I think we should start our conversation today. I am a huge huge advocate for CD events.

we have for now quite some time built these pipelines that are very Well, they're not declarative. Let's just put it that way there far from being declared of everything is is scripted. Every workflow has to have its own pipeline file and it is a it's a problem.

It really is because at this point in terms of security, let's ask, you know a large Enterprise that have hundreds or maybe thousands of pipeline workflows that they have to update to add s-bomb generation to the process. Captain was one of the first kind of tools that I really started looking at that was taking the event processing and having an event listener with a payload a little more serious. Please and you know, the CD Foundation has a whole CD events group that's working closely with Captain and there's another I think there's a few other tools of finally starting to think about, you know, how to make events work.

But and it tell us about Captain tell us about CD events and why they're important. Yeah, so Captain is a project that got started in want to say 2019 times a little bit of a blur and out. With the folks from Dyna trees trying to find ways to make sure that we think about SRE operations make them driven based on events.

So we started looking at a way for you to have like a delivery Pipeline and have Sloe evaluations and have room for you to do chaos engineering chaos, testing that allowed for you to build confidence in making sure that every time you deploy to your next stage closer to the customer. 0 for Keep Calm North America over in the Troy in October. So we're a captain one point.

Oh and we're looking like we're shifting to Cops and live cycle controller which comes in more specifically with those events. We want to know how what we're deploying on to kubernetes how it's actually Like being deployed and evolution of it. Is there any issues?

Is there anything in the law exact, we can actually report back to Captain so that it can actually take action for you and help you get to the next stage or roll back and such and we don't have that right now. Like we're we're deploying and a lot of it ends up being manually still like that Pipeline and we don't have consistency around applications. So we're really finding this phase where like big Enterprises that need to roll out to a hundred services at a time.

They don't have an easy way to keep everything in the same consistent matter and making sure that that feedback loop is also like quick and tight Yeah, and you don't want to get me started on talking about the problem that we have underneath the devops pipeline. We have all this data that we do nothing with. It's there and you can go dig for it to find the answer but it's we're not leveraging it to do to start automating responses.

And that's what artillas is working with Captain on so we probably should chat on a different time and channel and and dig into it because it's a really interesting area. I mean, you know, if you talk to the Jenkins Community, they're starting to look at CD events as well. And I believe that we'll see a shift in how pipelines are managed over the course of the next few years.

Do you think that people are going to start embracing an event based, you know listener just like we have, you know Cloud events. Why not have cd events, right? I think we are because we were starting to see that our infrastructure is constantly changing and if we don't have like a way for that to report back it's kind of hard to make sure that things are running smooth.

Like I know with Captain a lot of the work that's been done with workflows and our go has been to push that forward. Like how can that workflow be as clean as possible that you can then actually integrate with another project such as open Telemetry to observe your entire deployment, which is kind of hard to do currently. Yeah, you want to tell us a little bit about open Telemetry and a lot of our viewers may not have heard it or used it.

Yeah, so open Telemetry is a project. That was also I think started in 2019. This came together emerging off from multiple projects working in the space from like open tracing was one of them and census census.

Yes open since it and it kind of allows for you to have a vendor neutral way for you to collect Telemetry data. So it leverages like the open Telemetry collector that get Telemetry data such as event logs and trace it from your applications, which your instrumenting with Hotel libraries and then the hotel collector is able to send that over to your vendor of your choice such as lights that honeycomb grafana or an open source tool and it's kind of need in some ways and I only got started in open Telemetry when I join light step in 2022, but a drama actually got a chance to be an end user before they started working at lights up. She might be able to chime in if I miss anything specific Hotel.

Yeah, thank you. You got like the the main points of Hotel the so like the The Collector is like so there's like different ways to send data to your observability back and you can do it directly from your code, but the recommended ways through the hotel collector because then you can it's basically like a data pipeline. So you can extract transform and then send off your your data to the observability vendor of your choice.

And if you want like the vendor neutral aspect of open Telemetry and The Collector makes it so that if you wanted to you could send Telemetry data to multiple observability back in So if you're like considering two vendors, you can basically do a vendor bake off you're sending the same data to those two vendors and you can see how is it that they render your data differently, right? They're all receiving the same data. It's a matter of like what they do with the data that will help differentiate it so my job before light Step at two cows.

I was actually managing and observability. And so we were trying to bring open Telemetry into the organization because when we joined it was basically like It was an observability team in name only they it was basically a team that managed a bunch of like internal open source tools and I'm like, okay. No, we need to standardize on things and they were already using an observability vendor like a SAS product.

So I'm like, okay, let's just ditch the internally managed tool. Let's make sure everyone pivots to this vendor that we're already using. Let's standardize on open Telemetry and let's let's basically spread the word of observability to the rest of the organization.

So we became like an observability practices team instead focusing on like making sure that we are actually practicing observability rather than oh we're sending logs to blah blah blah vendor we've got observability. So that was like a really big part of our mission, but the the interesting thing was so I joined two cows in 2021 and we were exploring open Telemetry like in the summer fall of 2021 and I think the open Telemetry traces had just gone to General availability in the fall. So I'm trying to pitch this thing that basically is like fairly new to this company say guys.

This is gonna be the next big thing seriously all have to move over to this thing and they're like open Telemetry doesn't feel like it's ready yet and I'm like no no trust me. It's gonna be the big thing. So here we are.

Telemetry I think now like metrics and traces are a general availability logs are on their way. They're not there yet. But I think like so many improvements so many different like strides have been made in open Telemetry since I came into using the the project and now like I'm super excited to be part of the open Telemetry Community myself.

Like I'm part of I'm one of the leads of the open Telemetry and user working groups. So we're always looking for people who use open Telemetry in real life who can talk about like some of their challenges and so that we can share their feedback with the open Telemetry maintainer so that they can continue to improve open telemetry Very uh, thank you for that. There was a great description of open Telemetry and its history.

It is a it's one of those open source projects. That's an excellent example of when contributors even competitors get together to solve a problem and they do a really good job of it. It's you know, I started watching it when it first came out and people started talking about I was like, yeah, it's something that really needs to be done.

But it's one of those things that it's like, you know, somewhere along the line we all agreed on in the in the US at least what plugs should look like right now, they're different Europe, but all the plugs in Europe or differently the different the same way. So I I don't think that a lot of people who are outside of the tech World understand the problems that we have plugging things into each other and open Telemetry was a really good example of how to solve that problem. I want to talk to you both about your branding both of you have your your out there?

I know Anna. Why don't you talk about your podcast for a minute. I don't think you told us about your podcast.

Yeah, so it's not just my podcast Adriana and I co-host on Call Me Maybe podcast. So it's a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle sponsor podcast with a fun spin to it where we talk about a three on coins and a responsive ability just about everything in between and we really focus on having a quite a diverse lineup from folks that just are getting started joining observability to folks that are launching company than the incident response or maybe just an S3 that's like coming and sharing the story but it's been it's been really awesome to see it grow.

We just brought up season one that we have 13 goes out there the folks can listen to and just this upcoming February 14. We're actually launching season 2 and we put episode out every single week and there's a lot of fun speakers coming out this the season from like the security perspective to more of a severability mindset like quality assurance. Like how do all these things kind of come together in the Big World?

I think that's awesome. That's awesome that you guys are able to do that because in terms of you know, we are talking about tech strong women and we all know that women are don't normally go into this field. Oftentimes because I don't have good mentors and they're not looking up to people but so you guys are you know, we're trying to do that here at text on women.

I think what you guys are doing is pretty important too so that we have younger women seeing us in these roles. It'll make it easier for them to go into these roles and I have to tell you both of you are from Latin American countries and our artilliest projects. Some of our strongest contributors are from the same areas.

Do you guys do any work with kind of really encouraging other folks from Latin countries to get involved in open source. Have you thought about doing that? So I can only speak for myself.

I work with organizations like such as code 2040 and Technology chicas that really focuses on getting like Latinos a lot of neck girls into code, especially from like a young age and code 2040 expands on also for Block students as well. But the focus is never specifically like open source. It's like let's get you into the door of technology and I always felt that that has been the right choice.

I think in the last three or four years we have seen more movement when the pandemic of like open source is a great door to for you to get into the tech community and especially like Where you are now getting closer to US market rates because you're in the open source community. And I know there's two organizations that specifically work with getting more students into open source that actually like give you grants. I know one of them is like Google summer of code on and they like Target a lot of diverse students.

I know Captain works with them and like those kind of projects like I mean to me make a lot of sense, but I have yet to go through like a one-on-one mentoring through one of them. I feel it's in general in terms of a geographical area. It's it's under leveraged.

There's a lot of really technical people coming from you know, Costa Rica and Brazil all the Chile all over Latin America Mexico some of our literally some of our strongest contributors for tilius come from those areas not women though. We don't see as many women. So the two of you are awesome very and you both like stuff so there's something going on there right stuff.

Adriana you wrote a pretty interesting article that you know is near and dear to my heart and some of it has to do with well. First of all, the article was on what you called psychological safety and I talked to a lot of folks especially in the SRE field who? Don't feel like they have the ability to fail fast.

And for sres just like you describe trying to bring in open Telemetry, right upper management often doesn't provide us the ability to fail fast. Talk to us a little bit about that psychological safety and what it means to fail fast and how a team can grow from that. Yeah, so I can I can draw a lot of that I draw from some of my own personal experience like just you know being fresh out of school and making mistakes right and and feeling like there's like a magnifying glass on you whenever you make a mistake and then the stakes get higher and higher like when you start, you know touching production systems forget like making a mistake and code before it goes to production.

But when you're like using a you know, you're on a live production system and you make mistakes and something goes wrong and you've got like people breathing down your neck either because you're the cause of it or because they want you to fix it right away and you know next thing, you know, you find yourself on a call with like, you know, 15 people and a bunch of them are exacts and they're like making suggestions like restart the database. I just fifteen years ago, and I remember did and you're like, oh my God. Wait, let me do my control all delete.

Undo you and under that magnifying glass and not being given the opportunity to like. Just take a step back and do your thing and you know Tate have a chance to fail Embrace failure. That is so stressful for for people who are under that magnifying glass especially sres and not being able to fail fail fast.

I think is a detriment because first of all causes like PTSD, I mean, there are people who will straight up never again. Like it says on calling the job description, bye-bye, right and and that's that's a shame because I think you know one of the things and I talked about like we had so many guests in our podcasts where they showed us a better way to SRE. So I know that there's a better way to SRE out there.

One of them is just having that kind of empathy and allowing people to learn from their mistakes. I mean as technologists we the our biggest learnings are from our mistakes. You know, it's great when something works right off the bat, you know, oh it worked just like in the manual awesome but like our greatest learnings are from the things that like go up in flames.

You know, the Raging dumpster fires. Those are the those are the greatest opportunities to learn stuff and if we're suppressing that in our engineers, then that's like a lost opportunity, right because upper management has to be how have their teams back right? Yeah say they have to stand up there.

It comes from either the director level or minimum the manager level. They have to have their teenage back in order for that to work. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah, and without that support like it. You know, you're you're not gonna trust your manager.

If you know, your manager doesn't doesn't have your back and then you'll you'll not be you won't be forthcoming with them and you certainly won't be like, oh, yeah, that was my fault. Like I have no problem admitting to a mistake but it's like extra scary when you know that it's gonna cause like, you know your manager and his manager and his manager to like come. Breathing allowed to problem because everybody in technology is going to make a mistake and we should be able to say hey, I made a mistake.

We got I know how to fix it. Let's move forward. Let me fix it.

Let's move forward which takes me to chaos engineering. I I did a kind of a book club on chaos engineering because I find it to be way overdue. And the the author was Casey Rosenthal.

He said something of you know, I said, give me an give me an example a chaos engineering and he said and there was a guy on the zoom who had a cat sitting on the back of his chair and his name was George and he said well, let's assume George's cat gets sick and George is up all night because he had to take his cat to the emergency room and he gets to work the next morning and he has to do a production release and he fat fingers something traditionally. What we would do is spend all this time screaming at each other trying to find out what happened looking for root cause analysis and the root cause analysis was you how did that benefit us? But we really have to do is build a good way to respond to any problem.

It's the response that's critical not looking for root cause analysis or to point fingers. That is the essence of failing fast, right? a hundred percent and like it's like you don't necessarily just have to embrace failure I go ahead and I say you need to look for opportunities to fail like create those opportunities and constantly practice it because one like It goes to like the idea of unknown own failures that can happen to your system.

And you kind of want to play with your systems to find where it can break so that you go ahead and you make your resilient to those failures. But at the same time you don't want to stop there because our systems are quite complex and they're constantly changing. That means that everything go failure is going to be different than the last though.

You also have to get comfortable with setting up a kid and to do the type of like failure injections or job. They all failovers between data center or running run books. That way your team actually knows what to do when that moment comes that they actually do need to restore from a backup that they need to deploy a whole bunch of new services or restart, like some of the the servers that are running on cobal or anything like that.

Yeah, those game days are so important. I mean imagine. Just imagine if we never sent I mean think SRE is a First Responders if we look at the industry of First Responders and take like firefighting for example, thank goodness that we don't wait for a fire before we send the age of firefighter into a burning building they go and they go practice that so why should the SRE will be any different they should have that opportunity to go through that do their fail fast how the support of their upper management and have game days to learn how to do it.

The last thing you really want to do is try as you both of you being on call and I have been there too is try to debug something at three o'clock in the morning. It's a horrible time or really bad for me would be Friday it five o'clock Which is generally when those problems occur because like oh, well deploy something on Friday and then the person I call us sitting there while everybody else goes to the bar. Yeah, that first responder analogies.

Really. I've never heard anybody use that for SRA but it's really appropriate because I mean think about you know era, you're an a paramedic but no one teaches you to do CPR until somebody needs it and okay. Let's see PR right now that isn't that's an amazing.

analogy Tracy because you guys really are First Responders for sure first responder sres our First Responders. They're the ones they're sticking their neck out. They're the ones that are going to take the chance to see if this will work to get the system up and running and That's that's psychological safety is such a great term and I really enjoyed the article.

I encourage everybody to go to the light step blogs and I look at that article about psychological safety in the workplace. It's important especially for sres because I they I've met some really stressed out devops engineers and srees especially during covid. Holy Toledo what was going on there?

Why was there so much? What was your right? Yeah, what was your experience?

We we read a conference at Gremlin called failover call which was like our response to all events actually being canceled due to covid and we're like, hey speakers fail over your talk to another conference come to fill overcome. And one of the speakers was from pager Duty. I like I can't remember who she was right now, but she gave an amazing talk like starting to look at the data that was coming in for for incidents that were happening that year and you can start seeing like the increase in amount of incidents.

You can start seeing like the increase of a mom of pages that they were getting compared to like prior to covid-19 being a big as it was an early 2020 and a lot of it was because we were stressing our systems to extreme demands that no one had ever thought about all the sudden all of us happy with online banking because we couldn't going through a branch to find out our balance to Make a transaction something that you would do by just walking on over or driving over then. We also saw like a movement through like delivery applications for groceries Pharmacy. And those were be getting like let's say 20 visitors a day.

Now, you're looking at a hundred two hundred visitors a day and the system couldn't handle that amount of unique ideas along with running like all those like, oh synchronous like executions on the API that there were leveraging and then we also have hard drive filling up with data. So all these things happening in the complex this lens I think led to a lot of cascading failures and we already aware as a society pretty stressed out. So I think it all ended up being like about to make sure and Companies were not said to be on call so they didn't have healthy practices at all.

Like there was documentation out there on how to do it but not as many organizations were actually following through online doing blameless post-mortems making sure that you're doing Hands-On incidents like timely manners or even how work with the teams long enough, you know how to like triage an incident like there was no game days and all the sudden you were having failures and it's the first time that like you're doing a film incident respond and like it's not the same to being the same room. Then when you have 20 people on a zoom call or maybe even more because before like well, I'm bored. This is like what we're cooler.

Yeah. No, I I think you know it the SRE is during covid were unsung heroes that don't get enough credit for keeping the systems up and running it. Like you said everything from doing your banking to grocery shopping something.

So basic. It can you imagine what those systems are looking like when everybody was doing, you know, not only just just that just the stress of their own lives and they're having to add all of that on top of it. So Adriana where you know, we're I don't want to in this call without letting you talk a little bit about what light step is up to and why observability is so important to sres.

Well, I would say observability basically gives SRE super powers, you know like Anna and I had had a discussion where you know, I was talking about like modern SRE practices and I would say, you know modern SRE practices quote unquote is about making sure that you've got observability as part of your tool belt of in in SRE because observability gives you that, you know information about your system, right? It's it's about giving you the the information so that you can follow the breadcrumbs to understand. Why is this happening?

Right? And yeah, we had like logs and stuff before back in the day awesome. But now like we I'd like to think we've moved beyond that I mean observability is It you know people talk about like the the three pillars of observability.

I like to think that observability is more Trace driven with metrics and logs playing supporting roles And all of them come together to to basically explain what's going on, right? The traces give you that end-to-end view of your system. Right?

So now all of a sudden you have a story happening unraveling in your system from the minute that user says Okay add this to my shopping cart to you know, it going all the way to whatever however many microservices and back and adding it and the user seeing that item in their shopping cart. Now you have that into invisibility. So you've got the traces telling the story The metrics can provide additional information like late and see and you know any other stuff like CPU levels memory usage and then the logs give you that extra contextual information of like, oh, this is the thing that happened at this particular point in time when this other sub operation was occurring.

Can you imagine not having like that nice and and picture and so I'd say this is this is the place of observability in in the SRE world. And how do you I mean in terms we talk about self-healing and cougars being self healing how far are we I'm not in observability state space. I understand it.

But how far are we from being able to take that information and start automating some of the fixes that sres normally would have to go out and do manually, I mean our observability tools starting to do that not just providing the information but acting upon the information. I feel like we've got a bunch of the pieces in place that can enable us to do that. Like I think slo's can help Drive some of that and then there's like a bunch of tools that that automate workflows.

So then you can have like, you know, your slos ingests the data emitted by by your by your system, like in ingest your Telemetry that that drives the SLO and then you know, you could you hit a particular Target in your SLO that can trigger particular workflow to do blot right? It's like, oh my CPUs down to like, you know, it's it's like 99% usage. Oh, that's that's like too high.

So then it can trigger some some sort of workflow to do whatever to lower that that's EP usage. I definitely think that we've got a lot of the pieces and play I guess the question is whether or not we've got companies taking advantage of that and whether or not so both internally like companies using their their available tooling to do that and then startups basically saying hey, that's a cool idea. We can make the product out of that.

We we actually had that was actually one of the things that we did with Captain like the auto remediation steps. At first that was like the the one of the amazing use cases that folks were using it for where it's like you have the SLO which is kind of driven by observability. And then I would allow for you to like a slow breach years older mediation.

You just need to scale pods. And then now you're SLA SLO is actually accurate. So you're good.

Now, you can actually promote this to production. Um, I can see I've seen a lot more companies working in that space of autoimmediations. I think it would make sense.

If it's observability companies helping a lot drive like help drive this movement a lot more but I think we also leave it up to customers and and users to decide what they want to do. Like do they want the company that has all those ability data to actually be taking actions upon your systems because that's also like a different privilege than what you're letting folks get from Telemetry data. And we just brought the conversation all the way back around to CD events.

You because that's really what we're talking about right being able to have a standard listener and be able to execute a workflow with a payload based on that standard listener whether that listener be looking over the CD pipeline or looking at observability triggers. That is why I am I preach events. So strongly in the CD pipeline because as where we're going to build our real Automation and automation is key in all of this and as you both know with microservices, you just have that much more instead of just deploying one monolithic all the time.

Now, you're deploying a giant Lego system. So the City events, I think will save us in the future. Let's just end it on that.

You guys have the best little terms for Stuff. Having a Bake Off Adriana. That was like amazing.

Responders, I mean we came up with a lot of really fun stuff here. Um before we finish up here can one of you guys give us the skinny on the on call me maybe podcast where can people find it when when is new at when do new episodes show up? So we're launching season two on February 14th.

And also we're super excited about the season because we've revamped some of our branding so we've got some fun some fun Graphics. We've got our on Call Me Maybe llamas that are part part of our our new part of our new look. Yeah.

So we just posted on on our socials today with it with our llamas teasing season 2, you can find us on all the socials. I think we've got pretty much everything. We've got LinkedIn Twitter mastodon tiktok.

Instagram and YouTube so be sure to follow us on all of those everywhere. That's well we go, right thank you guys so much for joining us at what a great conversation. It's it's really exciting to see the younger women that are out there and it was a pleasure ladies being active and and we really appreciate you taking time.

We we know you are busy srees. We appreciate you taking time to be with us and thanks for everyone for tuning into another episode of tech strong women. We'll see you soon and keep watching Tech strong TV for great content and great interviews.

Thanks everybody. Thank you you.