Leveraging Incidents to Understand Your Organization – Tech. Strong. Women. EP 12

Hi everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of tech strong women where we feature amazing women doing amazing things in Tech. I'm Jody Ashley executive producer here at Tech strong, and I'm here with my co-host Tracy Reagan CEO of deploy Hub and member of a bunch of boards at the Olympics Foundation.

Before I introduce today's guests. I want to give you a quick update about what's happening here at Tech strong TV. Yes.

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So, you know, we I continually look at the labor market in terms of the software development puzzle with that. We're in and Nora. I'm sure you can pitch in on this one.

We it's hard to find developers. It's really a tough road to find software developers. So I'm becoming more and more fascinated with Microsoft's new open source project called co-pilot.

co-pilot is basically grammarly for coders, which means that you don't necessarily have to know every all the syntax just like in grammarly. Thank God for grammarly because I do terrible at spelling and Grant and punctuation only, you know, it saves me every day. Pilot is basically generating Snippets of code based on what they believe what it believes that you're trying to write.

Now why this is going to be interesting is because it's going to if it if it really takes off which I have a suspicion at will it's going to open up more what I like to call new caller workers a term. I heard from The devops Institute. I believe that we are going to see more women moving into software development as new caller workers.

So co-pilot is something we should start watching and then from a course from in my brain I start thinking about The software supply chain, and if a tool like co-pilot was out there. Maybe we wouldn't maybe we would have more of a central code base of Open Source functions, and we can start doing a better job of managing the supply chain and the security around it. So it has a lot of implications, but most in the area of bringing new people into this field now, that means new people are going to come in and entry level jobs as programmers, but we still have many many jobs at the higher levels at the higher pay levels like operations like devops like chaos engineering which I hope we talk about today.

So, I think that we all should be watching the co-pilot project. It is an open source project and start looking at seeing how it's going to change our industry because I believe it will have a pretty big it'll disrupt us it'll disrupt the entry level positions for software development, you know, if you spend four years in college, maybe you won't be spending four years in college to learn to Would maybe we can get more people spending four years in College learning to be devops Engineers instead. So some of these lower I hate to call them lower level.

But some programming is the entry-level position and I believe it's going to really open the door for it to a lot of people. Now, that's so cool. Thanks Trace.

Um great. Well, let's let's get going here. I would love to introduce everyone to Our Guest today Norah Jones founder and CEO of jelly and fellow, Colorado and just gonna say that don't worry.

Thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me. Tell us tell us about yourself.

Tell us what you're doing a jelly sure. Yes, so jelly is an incident Analysis company, but we really cover the entire incident platform from you know, coordinating yourself in an incident to learning the most you came from afterwards to seeing patterns across your incident and your organization that serve as a way to help you do better in your organization from you leveraging incidents to understand your budget. It's better to understand your head count better to understand your roadmap and estimates better to understand build versus buy better.

It can be a really nice Avenue to discover all of that and I think as an industry we've been leaving a lot of data on the table and I think we can use incidents to pontificate a little bit less about what we should be doing next in our organizations and the industry and we can use them to inform us more. So we're really trying to make that easy. accessible for people to learn what they can from them and Tracy I really liked what you were saying about co-pilot earlier and what I like about it, I you know in the seems silly but I actually really like the name, you know, I think even the name itself.

It's like hey, we're not staring the plane for you and we're not doing all of this for you, but we are enabling you and that is what I feel like the future of Dev tools should be like, I it bothers me seeing tools in the industry that are like we will just replace this for you and think for you and you don't have to think about these things and I just I think that's a Miss like ultimately humans and machine should work together and help each other. And so that's really kind of what we're trying to do at jelly too is like supplement the human being that's doing a lot of this that's busy that has a lot going on. So, yeah, that's that's what jelly is And you know you point out something that I talk about often is that we are you know, I guess the shoemakers children never has shoes.

And when it comes to data we as when I say we I want to say we as a devops community from you know from the the entire software life cycle of all the way from, you know, birth to to production and incident we leave a lot of data laying on drives in places. I mean devops intelligence. It has been ignored and it is what can Define Us and how we can improve and it's amazing that we don't do as much as we should with the data and when I was looking at jelly, it was like Yay, somebody's looking at data and making really good decisions on data because that's where the machine learning will come from and it doesn't have to be artificial intelligence.

It just has to be pattern matching understanding the problems are running into I want to talk about what I you know, I discovered chaos engineering last year, maybe a little late to the game, but you know, it's not my area and I was fascinated. Diet. Yeah, please talk to us about chaos engineering kind of how it really got started in your world and how it's impacted your decisions around jelly.

Yeah, so just to give a quick definition. Chaos engineering is the idea of purposefully injecting turbulent conditions and production with you know, a mitigated blast radius just to see how your system reacts and by System here. I mean people I mean Technologies, I mean potential customers in just being able to contain it in a small environment so that you can learn from it before you have a catastrophic incident that hits the news impacts revenue and in bad ways.

So I started learning about it back in 2015 and it really wasn't a thing. I I had joined a startup. com and at that time they had the highest Google AdWords spend in all of the world.

And so we were getting a lot of traffic to our website and yet we also didn't have sres we had like a devops team at the time but our website was going down a lot so much that we were having incident review meetings every morning like as our standup and so my SVP at the time they hired me to be kind of an internal tools and productivity engineer. I was really an SRE but we weren't really using that title at the time and he was like, you can just kind of do whatever you want. Like we can just try things.

Like let's just try things and see what happens and I found Netflix was doing this thing called chaos monkey where they would shut down a single node in an AWS cluster and make sure that you know, it didn't take down everything. To make sure we were resilient to a single node going down and I just thought the practices behind some of it were interesting. com to do that.

And I thought what I was doing was creating a tool but really what I quickly realized was it was a big cultural change and so I sent out a lot of emails before I turned on this tool like hey, does anyone have any concerns? Do you want to opt your service out of this and I got like basically zero responses and so after a while of waiting I eventually turned it on because it was like, okay, it's not gonna bother anyone. I'm just gonna do it and then I think I met like all of my co-workers that week because I had impact a bunch of their services.

We probably are QA and fire and down it was and I was like fairly new at the company too. And so it was a it was a big learning experience for me, but I actually blogged about the entire thing experience. Like I was like, I'm thinking I'm making a tool right now, but really what we Learned was how we reacted to those failures and we were able to like meet each other and like I didn't I luckily didn't break production.

We broke QA which did impact releases and impacted things and a big way but I started learning a lot more about organizational psychology and as it relates to the technical aspects of what we're going through and I don't feel like we're trained a lot on that as software Engineers, but there is a there's a lot of room for it and I think it's a lot of what devops is too so that was sort of how I got into it and then Netflix saw my blog invited me to come speak at their organization about some of the cultural aspects of things and then I ended up working there what I learned while I was there was We had this really cool chaos tool that we had built we had written academic white papers on it. Like how we were able to successfully inject failure into production traffic without customers noticing but in a way that we could learn from it like it was absolutely brilliant and yet what surprised me when I got there was that very few people in the organization. We're using the platform and I was like, well, we've built This brilliant technology, but what's the use of it?

If no one's using it and so I started trying to figure out why no one was using it at the organization and it turned out people were scared. They were naturally scared to inject failure in production. They weren't thinking about failure as much as I was in my job, right?

They were owning a service. They were owning a service that customers use and they had to get features out the door and they weren't they didn't want to come to a UI that's asking them where they want to inject failure and how many customers they want to impact like it's scared them. And so they'd stop.

at that point during the process of creating the experiment and I found sometimes that even just sitting down with them and talking about that fear and talking about What areas of their system keep them up at night generated almost as much Roi even more sometimes than using the platform itself and I found that most of that was based on previous incidents. And so that's how I started studying incidents. Like I actually wanted to drive more traffic to our chaos platform.

And so I was gonna look for patterns and like speak a language that they knew, you know, they had participated in incidents and so but I learned there was so much more data and incidents other than just trying to drive traffic to my chaos platform. Like you could see things like teams that were underwater and maybe needed to hire more you could see things like services that were critical and the amount of knowledge silos that actually knew how they work. You could see teams and practice versus teams and Theory because when you're in an incident all rules kind of go out the window and everyone's just trying to stop the bleeding and there's a lot of data to be found in that like you're saying Tracy so like my journey from chaos engineering kind of evolved.

To what I was doing today, that was a very long-winded answer but no it's a fascinating answer and it's an area that I find that we should be looking at and even at a in a broader perspective and again, I think about our situation with open source security. We should be able to have an incident response for open source, right? We should be able to sneak something in and see how well we respond.

Yeah, because it's always the case that we are caught with our parents down, you know production incidents always happen at Friday. It's you know, it's that six o'clock. Yeah, right.

It's always the case or Sunday morning at 2 am and nobody's at their best when it's 2 am on Sunday morning or even six o'clock on Friday. And so we don't respond that well and understand learning how to respond to incidents. Regardless of a kind of incident it is is I think more important than understanding the root cause analysis.

Yeah. Well, I mean I but I think understanding your incidents and analyzing them is important to like inform how you respond to them. I think a lot of folks at times spend a lot more time trying to get a handle on their current incidents without looking at a lot of the ones that they've already had it think of that mean of the girl and the boyfriend and he's like holding her hand.

He's like looking back at that. There's like this whole wealth incidents and knowledge that you already have that could inform and make those things that you're saying even even better Tracy. And that's where the data becomes important and the pattern matching.

Yeah, because we repeat our problems over and over and over. I've seen it so many times. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And but we do that because we're not, you know taking the time to understand them sometimes too. So where did somebody encourage you we have fun?

Is it to encourage you to create chaos, like I learned I've learned about that. Obviously. It's part of my job.

We've done some episodes on some other shows about it and it's super interesting and I always find the people that do it have like a certain personality like they're like, they're like you and they're like, this is really fun. And yeah, I cause I caused some grief but hey, you know, and I I've listened to and my husband who's a CTO and who's been in security for 30 plus years say to his team you we're gonna screw stuff up and we're gonna learn because we we fail and that's okay personality, you know, they're they're like, you said the teams that didn't want to try it because they're like, oh, I don't want to screw anything up. Yeah teach people that that's that's actually helpful.

Yeah. It's in your normalizing that part of work totally. And I think there's a confidence level that comes with the individual who's willing to screw things up to know that they can fix it.

Yeah, if you don't if you don't feel like you can fix it. You probably aren't so willing to to disrupt it. Yeah, and a lot of that, you know is outside the individual too.

It's like the system does the system allow for things to be messed up and if you know, I think a lot of the time the questions we need to ask after incidents was is how did it make sense or how was it possible for this person to do this thing? Because I think you're absolutely right there. I think of the Uber security incident that happened recently and how a lot of the blame was kind of a placed on that one person when really like it could have maybe been focused on the system.

Like how was it possible that this you know that this engineer did what they did and why did it make sense to them? Well, we haven't done a very good job in terms of a lot of the stuff that I know the incident, you're the Uber problem that you're referring to. But if we look at the underlying infrastructure that we have we are still pretty script-based.

Yeah, script it everything everything is scripted and we haven't not done a good job of thinking about data and separating the data from the definition and then being able to bring data into a central place and start understanding what we actually look like and I think that's what's interesting with what you're doing with jelly. So tell us how did you how did you come up with the idea? Give us a little bit of insight about your journey.

How did you start jelly, but, you know, did you just quit your job and say I'm going to do this. How did you do it? So the idea really started forming like when I was trying to drive more traffic to that chaos tool and I started looking at patterns and incidents.

So I I analyzed like how people talk to each other and slack during incidents. Analyzed the people that were brought in and when they were brought in and what team they were on and what their tenure was at the organization and if they were on call or off call and it was during their working hours and then I aggregated all that information and it was just a gold mine of data, but it also took me forever to do it and I was like, wow, I wish I had a tool I could help me do these things and so I started kind of hacking on it on the side while I was at Netflix and then I didn't quite know if there was a market for it and I started a community called learning from incidents and software. I just wanted to talk about incidents and I wanted to see if anyone else was doing sort of this pattern analysis thing like based on how people talk to each other and how organizations were supporting new employees versus 108 employees.

And you know, if we were able to get ahead of burnout things like that before it happened because it can ultimately support our system overall. And so I shot out a tweet and like I was like as anyone else thinking about stuff like this and I got about 300 DMS in a night. And so I started a little slack Community.

Yeah, and it was vital and so and it's been it's existed since 2019 and we've done a lot of really cool stuff in the industry. We have people actually that are outside of the software industry sitting in it too. We've people from that do safety critical things in medicine that study incidents and Aviation and so we're kind of just bringing some of that thinking into the software industry as well.

And so I was working with that Community for a while and I got offered a job at slack which you know Slack was about to IPO. When a company has a lot of public media attention. They tend to there tends to be like incidents tend to be heavier and they're tend to be more incidents because there's more pressure and so I thought it would be kind of an interesting time to join but I think as you know, pretty quickly into being there the the urge to start jelly full-time, like really was was pushing me and I it being there and seen the community I had started growing.

Was being helping me be like wow, there really is a huge need for this and the industry and I really just wanted to go build it and so I left slack after about six months. Actually. We had a few incidents and it was a really like amazing time to work there and just see how folks work together in incidents with such a public-facing company.

That was so widely used such as slack and then started jelly in August 2019. Yeah. So that's a story of service.

I think that most people I talk to who have survived in a startup World We tend to think about how we can be of service. Hmm, you know you you described just you know, just putting a tweet out there and seeing if there's anybody else who wanted to talk about it because you wanted to talk about it you were you were offering a service? Yeah something that you new you were suffering with.

So is there anybody else suffering with it? Why the only one instant validation that was yes the pile on of a responses right away. Yeah, I mean it was but it took a couple years for the community to build in a way like I didn't want to I've seen so many startups that were just kind of like I need to find a problem around my solution and I really wanted to make sure like I was actually building a solution around a problem and I I think you're absolutely right Tracy.

Like I feel like those are the best startups are the ones that are really trying to listen to what is Alien people in the industry. I mean I think with sres and devops folks. We frequently burn out a lot more than other places and we frequently don't get noticed and organizations unless there is an incident but yet we're all working all the time to keep our systems up and running and giving our customers a good experience.

But yet no one really. No one quite knows what we're doing like when there isn't an incident and so it's I like one of the things I really wanted to focus on with jelly was to help. These these folks tell their stories a little bit more and because they're carrying all this knowledge.

But yet we're so kind of bogged down. Sometimes that we're not always the best storytellers and so it's meant to give a place to share that knowledge and tell those stories to through data like you were saying I'm glad you mentioned that burnout, you know mental health is important in every industry but boy during covid I do a lot of sres who were seriously burnt out. Oh, yeah, like we're doing everything they could with on some of these systems to keep it up and running and environments that they had never worked in before like remote.

Where they didn't have access to a lot of things even though they needed them. They couldn't go back in the office and the burnout Factor was pretty intense for a lot of people in devops. I personally know three who just got out of it completely.

Yeah guys, are they still in the industry? They're in the industry, but they just got out of the two of them went back to programming. One of them went into testing and said, yeah you let somebody else chase down these problems because it's not sres tend to have a lot of responsibility or a lot of of the blame and and none of the responsibility.

So it's a it's can be a really really hard hard position to be in and like I say during covid I could not I talk to so many people on LinkedIn. They just wanted to talk. They're just like my I feel like I'm going crazy right now.

I'm doing a supporting problems. Yeah. So were there what did you gather a lot of data during that time?

Yeah. I we so we had started jelly in August 2019. And then we went into a global pandemic in March and we had just kind of started cementing our product at that point in time.

And so but then, you know just talking to folks in the industry talking to folks in my community. It was like some systems were getting used more than ever in the sre's job was more important than ever and incidents mattered more than ever. And so it was just kind of also renewed Mission for jelly, too just kind of going through all that and really wanting to provide that support.

I mean I spoke with some folks. I did a panel back in December 2020 with folks from three different organizations whose systems just like quadrupled and traffic overnight like someone from a food delivery company. I talked with someone from Netflix and I forget the other person I spoke to but there were a lot of systems that like just really changed traffic overnight in a way that people there's no way people could keep up with right you could have never predicted that situation.

I think as SRE sometimes we are expected to prepare for every situation that could possibly ever happen, but that takes like a lot of time and money and I think there is a lot of Um coordination things that can be happening across the organization too. Like you brought up a good point about blame with no responsibility and I think that is accurate and I think it can change and so like we're really trying to help other parts of the organization understand what sres and and these kinds of folks do so that they can learn to work with them better. Like if marketing is having a huge launch, they should probably be coordinating with us.

Are you like every step of the way, you know, that's so difficult. When one arms not paying attention to what the leg is up to and yeah and until that happens. Yeah.

Well, it seems like with with the pandemic. I mean it that's what with tech strong. I mean all the sudden we went from an impersonal organization to an online entity that we grew our company like three times size that it was during that last two years and Part of when I joined it and it was crazy to see just all the the struggles that everybody was having having to deal with all the security like suddenly.

Everybody was on a laptop at their house. They weren't working on networks the same way. Yeah causing all this and still is to some degree.

They not everybody still figured out how because they want to stay remote a lot of companies of are not bringing workers back and and systems still have to operate safely. Yeah. He's remote environments.

It's just so so much just hit all at once. Where are you organizations remote? Yes, we are.

Well our we have we do have an office in Boca Raton that about oh, I don't know half of our staff works at but yeah, the rest of us are all remote around the country. So yeah, we got rid of our office. What about jelly?

We've been fully remote but there were only four of us when the pandemic started. So my plan the whole time was to have a fully remote team, but I had also just signed a lease for an office like an office space with one of my coworkers that happened to live nearby me like a week before the pandemic. Luckily.

I was able to get out of it, but And moving forward you're planning on keeping it a remote company. Yeah. Yeah.

I think we might you know, we we happen to have eight people that live in Portland like they so I think they get together sometimes but I'm you know, we do we try to do a little mini in person things where we can but I think we'll stay remote. From investor perspective. How does it investor perceive that that Do they still think we should have offices or do they are they becoming a little more understanding of a A remote culture.

I mean I raised money before the pandemic and I had put in my deck that we were going to be a fully remote team. I think I don't know. I think it really depends on.

The person and the people that you hire I think and we have to be very I mean, I'm sure you all know this too. We have to be very cognizant when we're hire like hat is this person going to be able to support themselves and ask for help when they need it because one thing I noticed in a friend of mine is an engineering manager and he was really actually stressed when we all went in the lockdown now talking about it. And he said it's really hard for him to train Junior employees.

Now that are like just out of college. He was like because I can't walk by their desk anymore and be like, hey, what's What's Happening Here? Here because I can like see what's on their screen and he was like they don't know when they're struggling.

And so then you know, it's it involves different management techniques too. We're not hiring like right out of college employees right now, but that's something I consider as you know, we think about growing our remote work is is how would we be able to support folks that are not sure when they need to ask for help or when you can't quite walk by their desk and you know kind of just strike up a chat with them. That's a cultural shift.

It really is. We've learned a lot about that working on an open source project. Yeah, and how to encourage mentorship across the the committer community.

And have us have a place to have those discussions where everybody feels safe. Yeah, because not everybody in the devops world and we have a devops tool. We have a lot of devops people who want to contribute but they're not necessarily programmers.

Hmm. So there's a lot of Education that we have to do and I I there it is a shift. It's definitely a shift.

We have to really rethink our our the human aspect of yeah software. We just have to rethink it. Yeah.

Yeah, we're being disrupted like we do everybody else right? We're just we're disrupters and now we've been disrupted in terms of how we manage our our humans. I think talking about the sres and and I've had some conversations with them.

And and nor they said a lot of what you said, which is just their mental health has really struggled for the last couple of years and how hard it's been for them. And I think they are a lot of those people are you know used to being in an environment where they can look over the wall or around the corner and yeah like you here problem instead of like slacking. Can you can you talk to me or can you pick up the phone or whatever?

Yeah, some of us can work like my job is I'm great about I'm a cat herder, you know, I'm running around trying to catch up with all of you, but I do see where especially with we do in terms and all of our interns are typically at in person in the book office so that they can interact with our CEO and he can be engaging with them and walking down the hall and it is it Hard it's it's going to be interesting to see the impact that it has on college students in certain jobs being able to where they can work because it will be something depending on what they're doing. Well, so I I saw one solution to that one of my nieces who had gotten her first job during covid. She ended up they ended up giving her two monitors.

One she had on a permanent Zoom connection with who had been her TubeMate. Okay. Wow.

Yeah, and the other was her monitor. So she literally said she sat and talked to her cubemate all day who was kind of her her Mentor because she had been there for a while she knew the ropes and so she would just be chatting with her all day long and she said it was kind of like I was sitting in a cubicle. Yeah, I could see that being helpful for like someone new to their career for sure.

We've considered things like that too. We have like water cooler Zoom sessions and we don't even use zoom. What's the tool around?

Have you heard of the school around our Engineers use that and they it's like an around session where you can just go. Spitball with each other if you don't have to join it, but like they all like it because they get to have that camaraderie like they would be at you know, kind of an office. our boss is created the monthly Jeopardy game for the whole to the whole company and they Jeopardy about different different things in the industry and we all have to study them up all week for four weeks and then we're in teams of five and we play Jeopardy and it's yeah funny except we have one one of our interns who graduated and now part of the company if you're if you're familiar with John Wallace his son well, Will wins every time so yeah, we're pulling him out and making him the host because he smart that he's killing all of us.

So but it's a fun way to team build when we cannot be together and and we're all learning. So that's awesome too. But there's some creative we we did a holiday party during covid where I had food s*** to everybody's house food and wine.

They got to pick and we all got on zoom and had our holiday party on a zoom call with the food that had been delivered and and the wine or whiskey people got a choice. So, you know, there's a lot of creative. I'm one of those people that I have to look at the positive stuff that comes out of things.

I can't just focus on this really sucked. Right and yeah the devastation but the the positive things that it came out of it and and for some of these things that are really fun that no one would have thought about doing had we not and and the world was gonna go virtual to some degree, right the companies were already designing that way. So I think it's really fun that some of these things popped up.

Why one more question. I want to ask you before we get too far along here because we're getting close to being done Angel Investing tell me about that. I see that you're doing that.

Yeah. Yeah. So I've done a few Angel Investments.

I did one with an HR tech company called guide they provide a recruiting tool really for the company themselves. To help the company and the candidate know which stage they're at and the recruiting process and to provide like a lot of transparency into it. It's really cool.

And then the other companies I invested in are more companies that I'm like familiar with like a testing and performance related companies and SRE related companies. And so it was more I wanted to do it with companies. I thought I could make a difference in and like understood the problem space well and It's a lot to be a CEO of a new company and there's I think you know.

There were a lot of things I ran into that. I would love to be able to help other people on as well. So yeah, it's just it's kind of a fun opportunity to talk to other CEOs and other people trying to really Make something happen as well.

That's so great. Giving back is so amazing. Some people I would just think would be so involved in starting their own company for you to split your brain off that way and be like, but I want to use I want to help some people.

Yeah. I'm very careful about it. Like there's there's certainly like more companies I could do it with but I I want to make sure I'm also being cognizant of my time but it's I feel like we really also help each other out sometimes too.

It's I think one thing it took me probably about a year to learn into my entrepreneurial Journey was to make sure and making CEO friends too because it's like a very unique thing you're going through as a founder and even though you have a really great support of network. It's hard to find folks that understand. What's they're also going through the same thing.

So it can it's just really like we help each other a lot, too. And that's amazing. That's absolutely amazing Tracy.

Do you have any other good questions? No, I don't think so. I think this has been an amazing world Journey here going through chaos engineering and all the way through the culture of having a remote office and Angel Investing and Nora.

It has been fabulous meeting you I am I'm gonna I would probably reach I need more CEO friends. It's yeah, I think that tidbit of information was meant for me just didn't know it. No.

Yeah, let's be friends. I would love us. It is super important.

I supported I've supported senior Executives over the years was part of my career. And that was one of the things I found is that they they found it super useful and we don't think about that. We think well, they're so smart and they're doing all this stuff then they're good.

But yeah, you you definitely is nice to have people in a community that you can reach out to and be like, did you run into this? Yeah other people are gonna dance. Yes.

You're not bananas. Like this is the thing that happened to me this morning. We Care bananas, we think here we do so much for being here and we're just really glad we got the chance to to have this one-on-one kind of what I want you and one conversation with you and we're really excited for what you're doing and and we're gonna keep watching it and and see what you come up with in the future or very excited.

Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it being here with you, too.

Well, great. Thanks everybody for joining us for another episode of tech strong women. We'll be back next next couple of weeks.

So be sure and check in. Love to see you. Thanks a lot.

Have a great day.