Addressing AI Bias, Cybersecurity Education and Training, and the Power of Diversity – Tech.Strong.Women. EP 34

Hey, everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Techstrong Women, where we feature amazing women doing amazing things in tech. I'm Jodi Ashley, executive producer here at Techstrong, and I'm here with my co-host, Tracy Ragan, creator, and CEO of Deploy Hub.

Hey, Tracy, what's on your mind today? So, um, I've, this is not new, this is it's news, but I find it sad. Um, I, I was recently at a conference, I won't mention which Con conference it was, and I started acknowledging that there were of a lot less women at that conference.

Mm-Hmm. Um, I even went to an after party and there were five women amongst, uh, probably 70 men. It was awkward.

It felt terrible. And I literally left, um, the whole show, though. It was, I, I just, it looked like something that from the late nineties, right.

Uh, it didn't feel right to me. So I was speaking to some of the organizers about it, and one of the individuals told me this, this, and I, I had to go look it up, but Women Who Code is Closing. This is an organization that's been around since 2011, and it is a, um, I think it's a slap in the face, uh, for, for, for women and for diversity.

I was really, really very, very sad and shocked to see that, that that women, uh, who code is closing, um, and they're closing because they didn't get enough sponsorship. They didn't get enough, um, uh, money coming through the doors to keep them open. And for something that's been around so long and that led the way, I feel like it is a indication of what's happened.

And not to go too long on this, but in a previous, um, uh, text on women, uh, we spoke to a woman who works, uh, worked for Manpower for quite some time, and she told us that during Covid Women really took a hit when it comes to technology. And many of the women left. And as we all know, technology changes so very fast.

It's hard to get back into the, um, into the marketplace if your skills are four years old. So I'm sad for that. I hope that something could be done.

Um, but I think that the, our guests today are gonna have something to say about that because it's, it's not a good, it's not a good sign for women in tech. Wow. That, that's really tough to hear.

And I think, uh, we do have the right guests on to chat with about today. So I'm very excited, um, to introduce to everyone, Tennisha Martin and Nubiaa Shabaka. I think I said that.

Right. And, um, which one of you guys wants to go first? Tell us about yourself.

I can start. Um, my name's Tennisha Martin. Um, I am the executive director and founder of a nonprofit called Black Girls Hack.

Um, we are a cybersecurity focused organization that is, um, in, in existence to help people be able to upskill and reskill in cybersecurity, in in technology. Um, our organization is open to all, um, and I've definitely got some thoughts on this, but, um, I will let, uh, newbie introduce herself. Uh, first I am Nubiaa Shabaka, and I am the Chief Cybersecurity Legal Officer, as well as Chief Privacy Officer at Adobe.

So those are the two titles, but also I'm involved and I co-Lead Data Governance generally, and also am involved in the core group of folks who handle AI governance from an internal perspective and making us more productive internally. Wow. An uia, you are a, a Harvard grad.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about that. Sure. Um, So law school, it seems so long ago, so long ago, but it de certainly, um, got my start in getting in to be a tech lawyer.

I took a class, um, called Internet and Society back when the internet was like brand new. And, uh, I thought, oh, this is really where the future is. Combining a great law degree with just the technical digging into the technical know-how and expertise, 20 something years later.

Oh, surprise. Cyber and tech is a big thing. So yeah, I've been doing it a long time and Harvard was a great, um, training and stomping ground for some of the great minds in this tech space, um, in law.

I can only imagine. I'm sure it was a really good starting place. Uh, you know, congrats to you to be able to go to that school.

I would've loved to gotten to that school, but I de definitely didn't have the chops. I could say that To differ. I we're the same place on April 29th, 2024.

So it doesn't matter. Yes, it's true. Exactly Right.

So let's talk a little bit about, um, uh, this, you know, this horrible fact that women who code, uh, is closing. They were founded in 2011, so this is not a new organization that's just trying to get a start. Um, you know, uh, Tanisha, I would love to get your thoughts on it, uh, considering, uh, you know, for your background and the work you've done in this area.

Yeah, I, um, I actually was not, um, familiar with the organization in terms of what it is that they, they do. Um, but it, it came across my timeline on socials, um, with a lot of people saying that they were super sad that it was, um, closing, that they were heartbroken. Um, and then when I read the, you know, the press release saying, you know, Hey, it was for financial reasons.

Um, you know, I had, I had so many questions because it seemed like the response on social media lease was very over overwhelming in terms of, like, there were a lot of people who said, Hey, they helped me get my first job. They helped me to be able to, you know, get skills. They helped me when I first starting out, and I actually put a post about this on, uh, LinkedIn.

Um, because, you know, as a nonprofit founder myself, you know, I understand the struggle. I understand what goes into the very difficult decision, you know, that hey, financially we're not staying afloat. Right.

I, I get that very much. But, you know, my question was, you know, if each one of these people who had, you know, said, Hey, the organization helped me. They helped me get a job, they helped me to do all these things.

You know, did you donate? Did you, um, volunteer? Did you go back to teach some classes?

Did you sign up for, um, you know, uh, donation matching with your, you know, employer? You know what I'm saying? Did you mentor, you know, they, if people will use their collective voices and say, Hey, this organization made a difference for me, then, you know, one, I think that the organization will still be around because then, you know, you have people who are pouring in with the two most important currencies that nonprofits offer, um, operate off of, which are time and money, you know, and I, I think that if the same way that people, like, are upset when something bad happens, if they were proactive in terms of, Hey, that organization helped me, I should give back to it, then I, I feel like it would be a different place.

But, um, right now I think nonprofits are in a bad way. Um, very much so. And I think part of that has to do with a shift in terms of, um, donations for DEI efforts.

Um, you know, that's been going on. And then I think also just because of the economic climate that we're in, um, you know, the, the job market is, is not doing great right now. So I think giving in, in, in general is, um, is lacking.

Are there, Are there any federal funds available for organizations like yours? There definitely are Federal funds. Um, I think that the problem is, is that the application process to apply for federal funds is very, um, intensive.

Um, shocking. I reached out shocking to, to Grant, I reached out to grant makers, and, you know, I think one of the, the young women that I was, uh, speaking with, she was like, her rate is $250 an hour to generate a proposal to submit for these. Wow.

And because there's a lot of, I don't wanna say hoops, um, 'cause you know, I, I expect 'em to be responsible for, you know, where they're putting their money, but there's a lot of hurdles, um, a the the race track that need to be jumped over in order for you to actually get, get to there. But there, there are, um, there are monies out there. Um, but also I, I think that the reality is that, um, you know, uh, underrepresented, um, nonprofits, so nonprofits that focus on women, um, minorities, people of color, um, any of the underrepresented communities, they tend to be underfunded compared to some of the other nonprofits.

Right? Like, 'cause, um, I know that there are some nonprofits out there who have like crazy, you know, ways where they actually paid the people who do the work for the nonprofit. Like it's, I've heard this a mythical place that exists.

I just don't know about it yet. Um, um, but, you know, I, it, it's a different situation. I think depending on who you know, is running the organization, um, that you recently just put out, um, giving Gap, just put out a report recently that said that, um, I think it was something like 90% less, um, funding for general operations for Black founded nonprofits as opposed to any of the other ones.

Um, so it's, it's, it's interesting the, I think the discrepancies in terms of giving, especially when it comes to organizations that are focused on underrepresented communities. And maybe we're just seeing a shift in how it's done. Um, uh, uh, newbie, I know that, uh, Adobe has partnered with universities, um, to establish cybersecurity internship programs.

Um, um, I, is diversity and inclusion being included in that process? Uh, are we, or if, you know, how, how do those internships work and do we look for in those internships, women or people of color? Um, I mean, I, I also echo the concern with, um, these non-for-profits closing.

And so Adobe certainly partners with, you know, women in Cybersecurity, executive Women's Forum, obviously, um, happy to have worked with Black Girls Hack before. Um, and so yeah, our partnership we're committed to expanding this cyber talent pipeline by providing hands-on cybersecurity career opportunities, um, to students from marginalized communities. And so, if, I don't know the numbers, less than 30% of women in cybersecurity and the numbers, less than 10% in cybersecurity, um, in the black community, similar low numbers in other underrepresented groups.

And so we have, uh, a summer program every year that invites very talented students, often from HBCUs and other underrepresented schools that have great cyber programs. So, for example, we have a historic program with, um, Bowie State, which is part of the National Center of Academic Excellence in cyber Defense education. So these are top nich notch students.

I actually welcomed maybe last month, because it's not just the summer. We have a group of students right now working at Adobe during their school year to get additional hands-on expertise sitting in our security program. And I just recently welcomed them.

And then as they go through that program, they learn essential skills and often get hired after they graduate to come back to Adobe. So it is just crucial that Adobe does its part in terms of the cybersecurity diverse pipeline. And do they include mentorships in that?

Is mentorship a part of that process? Yeah, so once the students are on board in terms of being an intern, and certainly throughout the year, um, many of our folks who have graduated from the programs in the past mentor them, I personally, um, I'm available and often, uh, mentor folks that we have one former student who actually sits, uh, a few feet from me here in New York. Uh, and then we also have a very big community, um, in the, in our Virginia office.

And so there's definitely that partnership for mentors and making sure that they are seated in some of our Adobe offices that have cybersecurity senior folks, so that they have that grooming and they have the ability to answer questions and get the support that they need. Absolutely. Oh, boy, I, I know, not that I, you know, I'm, I think our education system is great.

I'm just gonna say that I don't want anybody to think our education system is not great, but my experience with, um, just about any of the disciplines in, in it that, you know, having a degree is just not enough. Um, Tanisha, I know you have a master's in cybersecurity. Was that enough for you, or did you have to really work with in, you know, did you really get your, you know, your skills down after you went to work?

Um, I think I'm probably the absolute worst, um, person to ask. Um, I, I actually have five master's degrees and I'm currently working on a doctorate, um, in cybersecurity and artificial intelligence. Wow.

You under achieve you. I know. Wow.

That's impressive. The reason why I kept, um, going back to school, I did a degree in digital, one of my master's in digital forensics once in cybersecurity. Um, and the reason why I kept going back is because I was not getting what I needed in terms of like hands-on, uh, skills.

And that was part of the reason why I started Black Girls Hack. Um, and I, I went to Johns Hopkins for my master's in cybersecurity. Um, and then I have another master's in IT from Johns Hopkins.

And then, um, uh, I have digital forensics was University of Maryland, and then my undergraduate was from Carnegie Mellon and it was in computer engineering. Um, and I say all that to say is that, you know, I had the technical skills, you know what I'm saying? I have the ability to comprehend, obviously.

Um, but I wasn't getting it from any of the programs. I went through my entire program. And they never mentioned, like, for example, a Cali box.

They never mentioned, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, we talked very much so about theory and not so much practice. And I think that the problem is, is that there is a very big disconnect between what employers are looking for, especially in the offensive security space, which I operate.

Um, it's very much so different than what you're looking, uh, what the schools are actually teaching people to do. Right. Um, I can learn all about the CIA triad and all about, you know, policies and procedures and all of those things, right?

But for a ethical hacker, um, the expect expectation is that you have hands-on, um, you know, lab skills. You have hands-on skills, um, in, you know, variety of different operating systems, for example. And that's just not what they were teaching.

You know, when I did my master's at in cybersecurity, you know, many years ago, um, so the problem is, you know, you've done went and got your degree, you know, maybe you did an undergrad, made you, maybe you did a master's or or two, right? Um, you know, and you don't have the skills that you need to for employment in, in the field, right? Um, so what do you do at that point?

What's, what options do you have at that point? Because, you know, the whole reason why you go to school is to, to learn the skills that you need to be able to get a job, right? It's supposed to prepare you for the workforce.

And I honestly, I don't think that it, that's what's happening right now. Um, which is why we have so many people who are, are looking for, for jobs. Um, I think that the latest numbers I saw were something like maybe four and a half million people are unemployed, but cyber security has like a almost zero unemployment rate.

Um, we've got so many people who are looking for jobs, you know, we've got a, you know, a few thousand people members in BGH alone who are looking for jobs. Um, but, you know, and there's a whole bunch of jobs open, but there's a disconnect between what they're looking for in the jobs and then what they're actually teaching. Um, so you know, it, the workforce is pretty much requiring that you, hey, go do your degree, but then after you're done, you know, then you still have to go and get some hands on skills that you don't necessarily get from school, right?

So you'd have to get those yourself in like a home lab or something of that nature. And the frustrating part is, honestly, none of us really have the cybersecurity thing down. Nobody is an expert at it.

It's evolving so Quickly, It's evolving. I mean, that, uh, for example, the EU just, uh, started announcing their cybersecurity resilience act now, um, Nubia, help me understand that. And, you know, is there anything in that particular act that really, you know, says this is what you need to do in the, in your software lifecycle, this is what you should be doing, um, on a daily basis to protect yourself.

It feels very, if there's, there's some information in there, there's some direction in there, but I don't know how you prove any of it. What, what are your thoughts since you come from this cyber legal background? Yeah, I mean, I think just the global evolving constant change to the laws.

Um, it's interesting 'cause when you think about cybersecurity, we've been doing it so long here in the states, when you think about obviously the, this cybersecurity framework, and then many of the laws that have passed coming from the financial services industry, which is my background, the most prescriptive cyber law of which a lot of the EU has now been, um, also putting it into practice is with regard to something called the N-Y-D-F-S cybersecurity, um, law specifically. And so a lot of the standards, including the EU Cyber Resilience Act, is really trying to give standards in a framework. And it's really focused on incident reporting.

Um, regulators around the world are really kind of fed up with all the incidents that have been happening for years and years and years. And so the concept of maybe a little bit of a backdoor, including with our recent US SEC Cyber Disclosure Rule, is trying to uplift the skills that companies have by saying you need to disclose certain components and aspects. So whether or not they're saying you need to have appropriate multifactor authentication, or you need to have appropriate encryption, um, at rest and in transit, and all of the various specific mechanisms that they're trying to promulgate the problem with that from a legal standpoint is technology moves way quicker than any law ever could.

And so when I put on my technology and cyber specific hat, what we want regulators to do, and we are all for responsible innovation and cybersecurity, but we wanted to keep it risk-based and high enough that we don't have legislators really having these prescriptive standards that might be out of date and not the most secure way to protect society and customers and consumers a year from now, legislation is just too long in the cybersecurity space to be that prescriptive and not have a risk-based assessment. Well, we also have legislators who are like dinosaurs who don't even understand the technology. You see that in these hearings and, and these things that take place that they don't even get it.

They don't know how to use it, they don't know how it works, yet they're legislating to people like you who do and are trying to make it safe and trying to bring us forward as quickly as possible. It's so frustrating to watch that. I can't imagine what it's like for you guys.

But the, the Biden administration has done some work in this area. He's, they've put a pretty, uh, good team together. And I have worked with some of those folks, so I, I do do know that, but even in the case of the executive order requiring software bill of materials, um, I even wrote a blog about it.

I, it was called, um, s om so far so good. So what if we're not consuming the data? There's, there's very, I mean, okay, you have a text file that somebody could actually manipulate if they wanted to.

It's, it, it, it just doesn't go, it doesn't help and go far enough. And we sort Be obsessed with S bombs just to get it out there. It always comes up in every interview.

We team, It's such a critical piece because it shows the software supply chain in the cybersecurity process. Now, what I really wanna talk about with Tanisha is let's put cybersecurity and AI together. Where is that going?

Because you obviously have thought about this, you're specializing in it, you're, you're, you're studying it. Help us out, give us a roadmap. When I look at the research, um, so far, and I'm, I'm basically a year in, um, to my, my dissertation.

And, um, when I look at the, the research, what I'm seeing is that there are a lot of use cases and a lot of research that's being done for defensive security. So how do we identify, um, you know, some that the breaches occurred, how do we, you know, basically become more effective as defenders? What, what I'm not seeing in the research is a lot of things that are focused on offensive security applications, right?

And the problem that I, I, I have with this just from a conceptual standpoint, is that, you know, our adversaries are basically using AI today to be able to, you know, for offensive ca capabilities, for offensive tax, for, you know, advanced for example, phishing campaigns or for, you know, advanced malware, for example. Um, they're having, um, AI systems basically u use these things for these purposes, right? Um, and we are not currently doing that.

You know, there are a lot of, um, you know, roadblocks in, in terms of, you know, guardrails that are in place to help prevent you from being able to do certain things with, you know, a lot of the, the GPT systems that are out here today, right? Um, and realistically they're, we're not looking at how to use them for events security. And, you know, to, I think Nubian and your point about, you know, legislation takes a long time, um, it tends to trail very much behind industry education is the exact same way, right?

And the problem is, is that we are not currently teaching ai, um, for, for the most part in schools. We're not teaching it in, um, you know, there's not a lot of specialized programs that are focused specifically on ai, right? And the problem is gonna be that we're gonna end up being very behind when it comes to the capabilities in terms of what we're able to do.

Um, you have countries like France who basically recently came out with a, a national, um, uh, AI policy, um, you know, which basically said, Hey, we're going to focus on one, you know, from a legislative perspective, but we're also going to put money towards, you know, the education and training piece to, you know, elementary, high school, college schools, so that, you know, we can make sure that we have a pipeline of professionals that are able to feed into the workforce, you know, as time comes. And I think that we are lacking that in the United States. Um, and I think that it probably needs to come from the top.

And, you know, it needs to be something that the, the one of the administrations puts out, um, in order for us to be able to effectively use these systems, because, you know, realistically when we're looking at them, there's a lot of possibilities. But at the same time, like there are some very concerning things like, um, the bias that has to do with them. If you ask, um, you know, one of the, uh, chat GPT, or not chat g pt, but the, the ones that do the visuals, like what do juvenile defenders look like?

All of the pictures that they will draw you are young black children. Um, you know, it can't even conceptualize, you know, that there are, you know, juvenile offenders that are not black, for example. Or the fact that I think it's something like 30% error rates when it comes to artificial intelligence systems, looking at black women's faces.

Um, you know, error rates like that are problematic to me. And, you know, most people are full speed ahead in terms of, you know, putting out their AI capabilities, um, you know, without concern to, you know, issues like that, the bias, um, and or ethical concerns, for example, Bias in bias out, right? ISN, the number for men, even higher for black men for ai.

I have not seen, I, I, I saw Like facial recognition software Thought even higher. I thought that it was 35% for black women. I didn't see what it was for.

Um, I, I thought that that was the highest one, but also, I'm a black woman, so that's probably why I, I was like, you know, I'm not trying to go to jail 'cause you can't tell my face. I just know it's ho it's horrible. They think this is a, some great new technology, but once again, it totally discriminates.

It's like, what are we doing? What's so crazy is the meeting that I had right before this was our AI ethics review board here at Adobe. And so obviously Adobe produces its own ai.

We develop and deploy, um, Firefly, and we take discrimination bias very seriously. Um, and as part of our art, uh, philosophy, accountability, responsibility and transparency in developing ai, but to be the de-biasing component is really, really important to us. So, you know, elements that happen in the raw versus what outputs you get in terms of trying to reflect reality and making sure that when you search for lawyers, you do not get all Caucasian middle aged, then, um, if you were to search on our platform to Tanisha's point is really, really critical.

So I, I would, I would venture to guess Tanisha, that if you did that search on Adobe Firefly, um, you would certainly not get all, you know, black folks because we understand the importance, um, of representing society and having that deep biasing element be part of how we choose to show up in society as Adobe and what message we wanna relay. And, and I, I want to tell you guys, I, I do not work for, for Adobe, but I am a very big fan of theirs. So when I say this, it is not an ad and I'm not getting paid, but, um, I can actually do what it is that she's saying.

I can actually check the Firefly, because Adobe actually provides to our organization the software for us to be able to do all of the things they, um, and they donate that to, to us so we can be able to use those tools and those advancements. So we're able to do some amazing, um, things with Adobe tools. And like I said, I'm not getting paid from them.

So like, this was not planned in any way. This is not a paid announcement, Not at all. But I'm, I'm a big fan of organizations that, you know, are, are trying to be intentional about removing bias and then also making, you know, technology accessible, right?

So, you know, I I very much so appreciate that. Um, that's one of the reasons why, you know, I was like, you know, Hey, let's do this because, you know, I I don't like performative acts of, you know, hey support. You know what I'm saying?

Like, oh, well, we support you, but you know, we can't pro help you as far as donations. We can't help you as far as, you know, licensing or software or any of those things. And, you know, Adobe is absolutely amazing, not just for, you know, I think Black Girls Hack, but, um, I've also participated with them in some events at Bowie State.

Um, and so, you know, they're actually on the ground with the students, which I, I appreciate because they're actually trying to make a difference. Well, we just need to get more people, more diverse people building these large language models, so there's less bias going in and less comes out. Absolutely.

Because it's a hard, it's hard. That's, it's really, really hard to, uh, de culture people, right? Yeah.

It's very, I don't even, you know, I don't think, I don't wanna believe, and, and I'm always an optimist. I don't wanna believe that anybody ever does it on purpose. And this is the problem.

This is the part of the problem, our unrecognized racism that we can't see ourselves because we've been in it for so long. And then when we go to work on these systems, and especially if you're actually creating these LLMs it, you, the bias is just there. It's a, it's a huge problem.

It really, really is. Yeah. I, I think that the part of the problem is that when we look at the data that goes into these systems, right?

You know, a lot of folks are making their, um, AI applications, you know, available to folks, um, but not necessarily the data that it's used to train them, right? And I think that when we look at that data, that's where the problem lies, right? Um, if you, for example, you know, have a, a place where they, you know, it's a minor, a largely, uh, minority population, and the police are, you know, heavenly have a heavy presence, right?

They're going to have, of course, more arrest, more crime, whatever. So, you know, when you look at those numbers, it's going to say, Hey, you know, this place is a largely black location and there's a lot of crime, so therefore black people commit all of the crime, right? And, you know, when you therefore then put that data into the system and you say, Hey, you know, ai, what do you think about this?

It's gonna say, well, hey, based on the numbers, black people create, create all the crimes. So, you know, they're more likely to, you know, for recidivism, they're more likely to recommit crimes to go, you know, so to your point, you know, garbage in, garbage out, we need to do better about, you know, improving the data that are being used to change, change, uh, train these, these LLMs. Um, but I think in order for us to do that, we need to get more people of color in into the research, into the education space so that they can start training on these things so they can, you know, get to the point where they're able to impact the algorithms, impact the data.

You know what I'm saying? Downstream could, because the way that it is right now, I think that there was a, um, uh, one of the big AI companies did like a, a group photo, and it was like playing where, where's Waldo trying to identify a person that was not a, a white man? Um, you know, and if that's what the future of AI looks like, then we're gonna continue to have a lot of these issues of bias and discrimination that are basically baked in, um, in all the different applications that these things are being used for, which We have a lot of work to do, Tanisha.

We have a lot of work to do to achieve this, but you're working on it. So I'm, before we run outta two amount of time, I want you to tell us about, we've got, we've got close about got time. We've got time.

I wonder to, yeah. I want you really to tell people how to get into what about Black Girls Hack? Yes.

And I want you to let people, you know, if they know young women who they believe have the skills, you know, they're great in math, but they would've never thought about going into computer science. How do they get involved? Um, so one, uh, everybody's, uh, black Girls Hack is open to everybody.

We have, um, uh, no requirements that you be a black woman in order to join the organization. So we literally train hackers of every, everything under the rainbow. org, um, and we have, uh, study groups for people who are trying to get specific certifications.

We have, um, training programs. Uh, we have a zero to, uh, OSEP, which is our red team training program. We've got the blue team version of that.

We are actually about to roll out in AI and a, uh, GRC version of those zero to hero style training programs that generally last about a year or so. Um, and they're open to, to all, um, we're also applying for funding, um, to be able to support these programs because again, um, you know, we're not able to do these things without, you know, money and funding. Um, so we've been applying for a whole bunch of grants, um, to try to get these programs covered so that we can get more, um, offensive, defensive, whatever security professionals, um, out here.

But, um, I just wanted to reiterate that, you know, it's open to everybody and you don't have to feel like you're, you know, I'm not a black girl. Can I join? Absolutely.

Um, 'cause I get so many questions like that from people who are saying, Hey, I'm a CI white male, and can I come? And I'm like, I don't know why all that matters, but, uh, you know, come on, you know, everybody is welcome. So, um, And the more diversity in these kinds of groups, the better.

No doubt. I agree. Yeah.

Um, I think that that's super important. And I, I think that, um, also we've seen, um, from a business standpoint that, you know, companies that have more diversity, have better, um, financial outcomes, they have better business outcomes. So, you know, there's a lot of, um, I think benefits to having more diversity.

Um, and I know that it's been, you know, an attack on, you know, DEI practices and, you know, trying to focus on diversity, but I think it's important that we continue to try to do, you know, make our cybersecurity technology industries more diverse, because it was, it's gonna be important for us, you know, the future of, of, you know, what we're trying to do. Tactical step. So you were talking earlier about supporting kids that are upcoming people, but you know, kids in general that are in college and giving them tools so when they get their education, they can actually get a job.

Do you have a lot of kids that come that are doing this as part of college? Like they're, they're finding this as, you know, kids do internships, things like that. Is this something that they do in addition to their education to get those skills?

Like you were talking about, this is a conversation that I produce a lot of content for Textron, and this comes up a lot in across tech, that people are, the schools aren't teaching them what they need to know to do the job when they leave, regardless of whether it's security or anything. You know, so is this, is this help support that? And are there other ways that you know, of that, that these kids can get more support to do that?

Yeah, they, they, they need, um, you know, they're not getting what they need, I think, within the school systems themselves. You know, I think that that's pretty much the case across the board. Um, but I, I think that what's important is that, um, you know, we reduce the, you know, the financial barriers to entry.

There's no way to get around the fact that they're basically going to have to work on whatever they're doing for school, but then also, you know, work on the, the labs, unless that's incorporated in their curriculum, which is not as, as of right now. Um, so I, I think it is important that they get those hands on skills, but it, it, it, there's no way to sugarcoat the fact that it's gonna take extra time, and it's usually outside of whatever they're doing for school, right? Or their internships.

Right? But the thing about it is, is that, you know, when they have those skills and they actually get those skills and they're practicing them, then they're able to actually go out and get jobs. I I always use the analogy like, are you in the gym?

If you're not in the gym practicing your skills, then mm-hmm. You know, you're not gonna get better. Um, and, and be able to, to move forward.

And I, I think Newbie was actually trying to say something a moment ago. Sorry. Um, yes, it's okay.

No, no worries. I was just gonna say, you know, as a practical interim step before we get to the theater of having a ton more diversity to Tanisha's point in the coding, in the cybersecurity space, in the AI development, you know, I think it's really critical that we at a minimum have a diverse landscape, cross-functionally and diverse from subject matter expertise in reviewing the systems that are being developed and the output, even if you are not directly developing it, right? What I was just saying around, um, Adobe, I'm not sitting down coding with my fingers, but certainly can provide a diverse perspective before we put any product or service out the door to make sure that they thought about those things that could impact women and people who are minorities, not a replacement.

But until you get there, don't do nothing. Do something as an interim step. And also the concept that learning on the job applies to cybersecurity, technical, and applies to cybersecurity law.

Like no matter what class you take in law school Mm-hmm. The, or privacy, which we also do on my team. Um, if you just graduate and say, oh, I took five classes on privacy, the training, there's no, there is, there is no substitute for the hands-on training in an actual cybersecurity incident, in a privacy incident, what to do and how to incorporate that in real life.

And so join organizations, volunteer, get a mentor, um, do whatever you can to get that practical experience. Join companies like Adobe that give those opportunities because you needed to get your first job. So who's gonna give you that internship so you can get your first job Right?

And cybersecurity is such a big space right now. It's such a good field to go into. AI and cybersecurity together are gonna be an amazing, um, uh, kind of cross-functional, uh, job because we're not gonna be able to solve, we can't static code analysis our way out of, of cyber problems.

We just can't. And I'm gonna put a plug out there for open source projects, um, in the us uh, you know, I, I run a, an open source project. It's a, an incubating in the Linux Foundation, and I have to actively go out and recruit women.

Um, but it doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter what what you call yourself, you know, it really doesn't, she, they, or him getting involved in an open source community is really, really helpful because you are actually acting as if you're working for a regular company. You know, you've got pull request to manage, you've got project schedules to manage, you have DevOps people, you have security officers, and it's an extremely good way to get, to really learn, um, just about any aspect of software development. So for those of you out there who are thinking, I'd like to be able to do even more open source projects, and we don't take advantage of 'em in the US like they do in India, I'm telling you right now, and in India, they even have programs as part of their university where they can get credit for being a part of an open source community and doing so many pull requests.

Well, it's like an internship, but not right. Yeah. I, I think that people, you Know, tend to, to, to sleep on, you know, the options that they have to try to get a work experience.

Um, open source is definitely an amazing way to, to go volunteering as a way to go putting together, you know, portfolios and working on like home labs, you know, um, I've seen people who've been, been able to basically, you know, articulate the things that they're doing within their portfolio in, um, interviews or within, you know, the, the job process, um, and being able to get jobs just based off of that. Um, you know, you have to be able to start somewhere. Um, and realistically, you know, if you just do nothing else outside of, you know, going to school, you know, I don't think that you're going to be prepared, especially if you get into the more, you know, some of the more technical areas of technology and, and cybersecurity.

So, you know, I, I think that technology and cyber are not one of those things where it's like, you know, Hey, I learned everything I needed to learn in school and I'm done now, you know, I'm good to go. I just go and, you know, go forth and conquer. You know, it's, it's, it's things are changing on a daily, daily basis.

Um, so I think it's important that you, you know, stay up and, um, and how do you do that? You know, I think you put yourself in the communities. Um, there are a lot of different, like meetups, there's a lot of, uh, organizations that do, um, cybersecurity technology related things.

There's nonprofits, there's, um, so many different, um, support groups. But I think regardless of whatever it is that you're trying to do, that you don't do it alone, um, I think it's important that you have a community to help, to bounce ideas off of, just to let you know what's possible, um, so that you're not just limited to the knowledge that you have. A hundred percent.

So I always like to be, to ask this question, there's two questions I'm gonna have you answer them both. We'll start with Nubia, um, who, who, who influenced you to become technical? Um, was there somebody in your life who has said, you know what, this is a direction you should go.

And you may have said, I, I don't see myself that way, but they pushed you. And secondly, is there a favorite book that we should all read? So, um, so my husband used to be, um, the head of technology for Not-for-profit for many, many, many years.

And I've known my husband since I was five years of age. And so he's very technical. Um, and then the first CSO that I worked hand in hand with when I was on Wall Street, now I'm in Silicon Valley, still in New York, but just understanding way back, early two thousands, the concept of you're in every technical meeting you're in.

Um, all of the drawings and designs and strategies and just understanding from the ground up, having that friend as a ciso, which is just a critical relationship, um, back in the day before they were called cyber lawyers, was really critical to just ex excel in the area, uh, to become really, really technical and speak the language, right? I mean, right now I have engineers on my team, which many lawyers do not, right? And running privacy related engineering.

And so being able to translate laws into technical components and aspects and having those requirements documents, um, I've done my whole career, I guess in part to first CISO and a little bit in part to my husband. That is so sweet. I love that answer.

I really do. Um, and so no specific book, what's on my bookshelf right now is just every AI book, every time I speak, like literally every time I speak on a panel or go somewhere, AI is, obviously, we are in the era of ai. Um, and it seems like every week there's another AI book that that makes it to the top of my list.

So no, no specific must read, But AI is on the top of the list right now. Absolutely. I should be reading more books on ai.

There is no doubt, Tanisha. So for me, um, uh, when I was, uh, getting ready to go to school, like my father was a, um, a software engineer, and so he was like, you need to go and be a programmer. And I decided that I was going to do anything except be a programmer, just because that's what he wanted.

'cause I was very big on my, uh, oppositional defiance. Um, so I literally went to school. I majored in electrical computer engineering so that I could learn how to terrorize programmers of the world, um, like my father.

So, uh, for the very, you know, probably first 10, 15 years of my career, I was doing software testing and breaking software just as a, you know, like, I don't want to actually make it, I just want to tell you why you're doing a horrible job. Um, and then that's basically extended over into, you know, penetration testing and ethical hacking, because again, I'm just breaking the software of, of the world. So that, that for me was my motivat motivation to become more technical.

It's just so that I could terrorize, um, you know, folks like my dad. Um, prob I probably need some therapy about that, but it'll be fine. And, And, um, I actually, uh, have like, uh, 14 co-authors, but we actually just came up, uh, we, we redu released a book in October of last year.

Um, it's called Securing Our Future, um, res, uh, embracing the Resilience and Brilliance of Black Women in Cybersecurity. Um, so there's 15 of us, uh, that put the book. It's available out on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Um, and it, what I love about the book, um, is the fact that you hear 15 different women's perspectives of how they got into the industry. Some of them are in in privacy, some of 'em, um, are like, uh, Nubia, you know, bad, uh, bad a, um, lawyer, cybersecurity women who are amazing. Um, and you know, but overall you have people who come from so many different places with so many different stories that I think can relate to so many people.

So if you're an underrepresented, you know, community within cybersecurity, I think you should definitely check that, that book out. Um, but then also, like Nubia said, anything ai, because realistically, I think, um, that in, you know, quantum computing are probably the future of what we're looking at at this point. Oh boy.

Don't get Tracy started on quantum computing, or we'll be here for another hour. I'm sorry. That's so true.

I'm a believer in quantum. It's just gonna be a few little tweaks and we will be there, and then we really will have the ability to do ai. It's not just GPUs.

Well, ladies, we have, we've been going, this was amazing. I think we could do another hour. Um, you guys are just, I'm just blown away by your, your backgrounds and your education, and you guys are so impressive.

I'm so excited that we got to have you here. Um, thank you so much for being here. And, um, I just, Tracy, I don't know, I just, I'm very excited that we got to do this interview today.

A hundred percent. It's so much fun to be in presence of pure geek girls. That's what you guys are, you're geek girls.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you.

It was A pleasure. Absolutely. I, I am grateful to have been, um, invited.

I just wanna also, uh, do a brief shout out for, we're having a conference in, um, August. It is called Hack, uh, squad Con. It is during hacker summer camp, and Squad Con is two days.

Um, also sponsored by Adobe and some other folks as well. So that's amazing. Um, but it is to see more underrepresented, um, folks in the industry.

Um, so we have a, talks on a lot of amazing di different things. Um, last year, I think it was something like 75% of our speakers were women. Um, so that was absolutely amazing.

Um, so we're doing it again this year, and it'll be, uh, August 7th and eighth in Las Vegas. Amazing. Well, we will make sure we get that in, uh, sounds Like fun.

Actually. I might put it on my calendar. You Should.

We, we have an absolute ball. I bet. Well, thanks again.

Uh, we really appreciate you guys being here. Everyone in our audience, thanks for tuning into another episode of Techstrong Women. Uh, we'll have another one coming up in a couple weeks.

But thanks for being with us today. And as always, stay tuned to Textron TV for more amazing programming. Have a great day.