The Tech CEO’s Perspectives on Marketing – Marketing: Art & Science – EP8

Hey everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of Marketing, art and Science. I'm CMO advisor and host Lisa Martin.

This is a really special episode that we're bringing you today. Now, you know, generally this show, we wanna talk about the artistry and the science and those levers that marketing leaders pull to deliver those dynamic, personalized, relevant customer experiences. But today with the special guest, we have Jeremy Burton, long time person that I've admired for many, many years, the CEO of Observe, Inc.

He's gonna be giving us some great perspectives from the CEO suite. Jeremy, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you so much for sharing some time with us today.

No, thank you for the invite. Great to be here. Yeah, so I'm gonna do a little bit of bragging about Jeremy.

I mentioned I've known him for I well over 10 years now, but he's been a CEO before. He is been a long time CMO as well, but really an enterprise software executive with well over 20 years of experience running software business systems from budgets of 250 million or revenue to 20 billion extensive experience in p and l management development of enterprise software marketing, strategic m and a co-founded and built the largest Oracle community on the internet, the Oracle technology network that he grew from zero customers to 2 million members in his time. And it's now over 6 million members today.

Jim, get the audience. I did a little bit of bragging about you, but give us kind of your overview and what you're doing and what and why you're at observe now. Yeah.

Um, as, as you mentioned, I've, I've done a lot of things. Um, but one of the things that I'd not done, um, was build something from scratch. So I think in, in tech, you know, many of us either work or have worked at large companies, and certainly if the company's doing well, I mean, I had a great run of Oracle back in the, in the nineties.

Um, and certainly with the, the sort of mindset of youth, you can convince yourself that it's, you're a genius all because of you. And, and I think as you get older and you, you sort of see a few more companies, what you realize is that actually you are sort of a fortunate passenger on the train and the folks who built the train and got the train to leave the station and get it to go a hundred miles an hour, they're probably the folks who were most responsible for success. So, so look, in short, I, I always wanted to do to, to do a startup.

I, I wasn't getting any younger. Um, and I, I kept in touch with a, a great guy called Mike Spicer from my Veritas days. Uh, Mike, uh, used to work for he as a product manager for me at Veritas.

Um, and he, you know, is, is in the business of creating companies. And so I I, I sort of got with Mike when I left Dell, and, um, he was like, Hey, these are the companies in the portfolio. And, and, and observe was the one that I, I was most attracted to put it that way.

I love that. You know, it's, as you, your career has been so history to over 20 plus years. I mentioned kind of just a tip of the iceberg of some of the, the specialties and, and, um, experiences that you have.

But, but having the chance to do a startup and, and go, you know, being willing to go, I've done so much when I, when I think of when I first saw you were CMO at EMC and then became CMO of Dell after the acquisition, and, and you're probably the most talented CMO I've ever met. Um, some of the art and the sizzle and the science that you have deployed, um, has been just fun, inspiring, different and bold. So I love that, that this seems kind of strikes me as, as you really bold taking, taking the leap into startup land and it's, how long has it been now?

Uh, a long time. Six years. I mean, that really, it's what a lot of people underestimate is that, you know, startups, the sort of a, I think in Silicon Valley, a a romanticism around startups and Yeah, sure, It's all about the IPO party and the, but it, it's a grind.

Like nothing, nothing happens quickly. You can get lucky, but I mean, certainly in the segment that we're an enterprise software, like you, you, you, like, there's no such thing as luck. You, you know, you, you, it's not like you can create a fashionable social network and all of a sudden be worth $10 billion.

You, you know, you've gotta solve a real problem that customers are willing to pay big money for. And it takes time. So yeah.

Six years. I'm standing. Let's get, I mentioned, um, that I knew you when I first met you.

You, you were a leading COI wanna get your perspective on marketing as the CEO. We, we have CMOs on the program. We talk a lot about where is marketing from a strategic perspective in the business.

What are the metrics that matter to the CEO give us that CEO's perspective of marketing as a pivotal function to help startups, you know, become successful and, and, and share that, that voice? Yeah, I think it, it, it, it definitely varies depending on the size of the company. I mean, I've, I've, I've ran a couple of companies.

Um, certainly observe is, is, is the smallest. Um, but I think with a startup, it, it, it really, it's all about demand creation early on. So I I, and in fact, I, um, warn folks who are gonna go higher market in folks early on, just be very careful on, on the kind of CMO that you're gonna get.

Um, I think the folks who've got like a strong branding background, uh, tend to not do well because you, you, the, the, the work here, it's really twofold. I think you, you ideally early on, once someone who is either a great product market, a product marketer with a, um, sort of a flare or an understanding of demand creation, or probably my favorite profile will be someone who is just a very action-oriented, um, field-based, um, CMO, who's good at running demand creation programs and field events. Um, 'cause the reality is, is there's the sort, the two most important people in, in a startup are the person who runs engineering and the person who runs sales.

And you, you, you don't want to try be the third of the two most important people. You've gotta align with one of those two. And so on the product marketing side, you are creating a value proposition from the product, from what the engineering guys have built.

They, they might not be great, and they probably won't be great at articulating maybe what that value proposition is in, in the terms a, a salesperson or a customer would understand. So that's a great skill to have. I, I, I think ton of value there.

And then I, I think most importantly, you, you have to be on the hook to help the head of sales hit their number. Yes. And, you know, if you are not helping the head of sales hit their number, then my guess is at some point you're probably gonna be looking for a new job.

Yeah. And, and suddenly, you know, we, we, at the, even at this early stage, we, we look for marketing to, um, really have generated or, or, or touched 50% of the opportunities in the pipeline. So 50%.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, salespeople do, um, uh, pipeline generation as well. Yeah. But I would expect half of it to come from marketing.

Yeah. Okay. Can contrast that with being at a big public company.

Um, you talked about, you know, some of the real specialties that you're looking for in, in the early phases of startups from a demand creation perspective must align with sales and engineering to understand the value prop, to be able to, to propagate that message. But contrast that with larger organizations, what are, as CEO, what would you be looking for in a stellar marketing leader? Yeah, I th I think it changes a little bit in bigger companies.

I've ne, I mean, I've never ran a big public company. I mean, obviously I've worked for a number of CEOs who've been running public companies, and, and I never got fired, right? So, um, maybe I was, yeah, I was doing something right, but I, I was always the product person, right?

I, my superpower was, um, listening to what the engineering guys were saying. I listened to what the product people were saying, and turning that sort of technical mumbo jumbo into a, into a story. And then I, I, I guess I was pretty good at, well, as well at, at thinking, all right, what are the creative things that we can do to make that story come to life?

Yeah. How can we, how can we get attention? And so I was pretty good at sort of product, product messaging, the creative side of things, and then the communications, like telling the story.

Yeah. What, you know, talking to the press and talking to the analysts. I, I was actually never the demand creation person.

And I, I was, I was very fortunate in that early on, I, I bumped into this guy called Renee Bony, who, um, I hired of many places, uh, hired him at Veritas. I hired him at, uh, uh, Serena. Um, and, and Renee is just a wonderful guy, and his skillset was sort of the opposite of mine.

He was very good at the demand creation and field stuff. And, and I, I always joke that a lot of what I learned in, in marketing, really, I, I, I learned from, you know, Renee, he was sort of the fund of knowledge, but this is why I worked so well. I, I, there was a gap that I knew did the things that I didn't do.

And so the relationship with the field, which is always important in an enterprise company, Renee was the guy who could drive that, and he could show the, the value to the sales team. And I think I could show the value to, to the CEO in terms of like, great messaging, um, compelling value proposition, like creativity, great press coverage, uh, great, you know, user conference events and, and, and, and you really need, those two become very, very important. I think as you get bigger, it's not just about the demand creation in the field, it's about creating a, a, you know, a a brand and an aura and a presence for the company.

And the CEO obviously is your key spokesperson. And so, yeah, if you're making the CEO look good, that's not the entire job, but, you know, that's the Wind. But, But that's part of it.

Right? Yeah, Definitely. Absolutely.

You talked about, uh, going back to, to the observe, um, story you talked about, hey, I expect in startup phase that marketing is delivering 50% of the pipeline. In addition to that, what are some of the other expectations that you have on marketing in terms of it being a strategic business partner to, to you, to engineering, to sales? Yeah, I think, I think, uh, early on, I mean, I observe this year, for example, let's say when, right now we've got 30 salespeople, okay, marketing is actually starting to become quite important.

And next year, you know, um, really important because the number, you know, the, this year, you know, let's say we're around 30 million a RR, well, next year that's gonna be 60 and the following year, 120. And so the number just keeps getting bigger. And so the salespeople that you bring in, they, they, you know, they, you've got more hungry mouths to feed.

And so you, you know, you can't rely on the salespeople to, to, to fill the pipe by themselves that they need some assistance. And so then you, you start to think about, okay, how do we scale our message? And this to me is what, what what marketing is, is, is all about if salespeople were cheap, you'd just keep on hiring salespeople.

You wouldn't do any market. Yeah, Exactly. So we, They, they would go and knock on everyone's door or, um, and, and, but, but you can't do that.

It's just not viable because in the Bay Area, the OT of a salesperson is $300,000. And so the question is, is how do you drive productivity out of those salespeople, right? And, and, and productivity is about them bringing in like, each year, like more money, you know, more a CV, um, for the same amount of, in, in an ideal scenario, less work.

And I think that's where marketing comes in. It's a, it's a great sort of productivity boost for the sales team because you can loosen and, and warm up prospects, and so that when the salesperson engages, they already know the value proposition. Maybe they've even tried the product.

Um, and, and, uh, and I tell you, you know, sort of in the pre-market fit stage of a startup, which a lot of people don't talk about too much, marketing is actually not that important at all because you, you don't have the market fit for the product. You don't know whether your product can solve a problem for a hundred or a thousand or 10,000 people. You might be only solving a problem for tens of people.

Well, if you're gonna solve a problem for tens of people, don't go and don't go and blitz 10,000 people saying you can solve their problem, because you're probably gonna fail, right? You're just gonna generate demand that is gonna result in you probably not being able to solve that problem. But once you get to market fit it, it starts to become important.

And I'd say the demand creation first and foremost. And then I think product marketing becomes very important because you've got more salespeople. Um, you know, you, you, you have a variety of skills in your sales team.

So the messaging has gotta be simple. It's gotta be you, you've gotta quantify your differentiation, you've gotta understand how you stack up against the competition. So I, I, I'd say those two things, like scaling the demand creation, and then, um, getting very good at the value proposition and product marketing, and keeping it simple enough, particularly in enterprise tech, such that as you bring new salespeople on board, you can get 'em up to speed in that magical six months or less.

Yeah. That simplicity is absolutely key. Let's switch down to kind of talking about the art and the science piece.

Um, we talked a lot about the, the creativity and the art, and there's some amazing things that I've seen you've done artistically before, guys, just Google, Jeremy Burton, EMC, you're gonna find some amazing things that they did there. But I'd love to understand from the CEO's perspective, what is the art to you now, given where you guys are, demand creation is key, starting to get that product fit. So, uh, the value prop being able to, to create that sim simply, where does the art come in at your current phase?

Yeah, I think, um, no, look, you, you, I think every, every CEO has got the thing that they're best at. Everyone's got like a, like a, a major and a minor, if you like. And yeah, and like, my major is probably, probably marketing and my minor is, is, is, is probably product or, or, or engineering.

Um, and, and so that, that's sort of what I like to do and, and probably what I do best. And so I'd say even at this early stage, there's huge opportunity for creativity. And one of the things I've always loved about marketing is you, you, you know, you, you, you get to dream up weird in wonderful ways to make your message, uh, compelling.

And, you know, at at, at our stage, I mean, we have, we have quite a, a technical product. We sell the technical people, it can be quite difficult to understand. Um, and so to, to try and at least convey the message.

We've, we've got a, a, you know, an illustrated character that we call Ollie, I mean observability, oh, 11 y Ollie. Um, and so he is sort of like a friendly disarming character that we use to do everything from articulate our core differentiators to make fun of the competition. And, and I think you, you know, you can, you can get away with that if you do it tastefully.

I mean, if you're poking fun of the competition through a, you know, a friendly robot, then you know, hey, who's not gonna like that? Right? I'd say, you know, in, in every company, and, um, certainly that I've been at, and certainly every job that I've been in, uh, I've, I've always been very keen to have the team think about, all right, how do we stick out for the crowd?

Um, we, we, we still do product launches. I, I, I think it's super important that with all the great engineering work we do, that we, we have a rallying point to get that message out to the market, to get it out to the analysts, to put together new demos, to refresh the website, to come up with new, you know, Ollie videos. And it's a, it's actually a great motivation for the team.

And I think a lot of these things become like checklist items. Oh yeah. We, you know, update website, um, you, you know, write, press release and, and yeah, they, they can be sort of like non-events and, and just a task.

But what I've found is if, if you, if you sort of indulge people a little bit more, it doesn't necessarily cost a whole lot money to do something more fun and different, but it takes a bit more time, right? You, you, you've gotta take the time out to think, alright, what, do we have a code name for this launch? For example, alright, what's, what, what, what is the theme of this?

Okay, can we do something for the launch around that theme? Maybe can we host it somewhere that's in keeping with that? Um, and then all of a sudden, you know, you, you sort of, people's creative juices get, you know, start to flow and you engage more people in the company in that conversation.

And then, you know, when you talk about like, oh, I, I have foot at work, what does that mean exactly? Well, it, it actually means coming to work and being able to do some freeform thinking Yes. And, uh, come up with stupid stuff that maybe you wouldn't do every day.

But it sometimes the stupid stuff is, is so stupid, it's actually good, you know, it, it, it, and that's what gets you to stick out from the crowd, right? Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So everywhere that I've been, certainly in marketing jobs, I've, I've, I've always had a person or two in the group that could create the right atmosphere, I think to be creative and to do the odd as, as you would say, you need the right environment in the company. Yeah. People have not gotta be afraid to speak up and come up with a stupid idealy No idea is too, too stupidly, right?

And, and, and by way you've got, you're not gonna have a lot of pride in your idea because it, it, it, you know, it might be totally stupid and, and, and impossible to do. Um, yeah. But if you create the right environment, then people get creative with their, their ideas, and then once you get the ideas out on the table, there's always something good to go do.

I always think the employee experience and the customer experience, you're like this, they're inextricably linked. When the employees are productive, uh, creative have the freedom to do so. The customer experience benefits from that.

You mentioned differentiation, and I, I talk with so many CMOs and so many, I go to so many conferences and AI is everywhere, right? It's always in the title, it's in every keynote, it's in, I have seen Jensen Wong more times this year on stages with Yeah. With this cool leather jacket than I ever have before.

Um, and so, you know, and, and videos associated with, with ai, but how do organizations, from the CEO's perspective, how do you leverage AI as a differentiator to the business? Because we're seeing so much visibility on AI in terms of the investments going on, and, and investors wanna know where's, where's the proof in the pudding? So how do you, how do you kind of really leverage that as a, as a true differentiator?

Yeah. The, uh, so a standard joke is that, so ai, AI is the technology that every CEO dreamed of because, you know, CEOs always want like a PEC project, and AI is the perfect Project. I, I know nothing about it, but it sounds like we're gonna have artificial intelligence.

And so Right. You know, how could that not be a CEO thing? Um, yeah, I mean, look, I tech, we, we, you know, when you're in tech, you are in the fashion business whether you like it or not.

Um, and the thing I've, I've loved about this industry over the last whatever 30 years is, you know, we, we had PCs and then we had, you know, the web, and then, you know, we had social networking, and then, you know, we had cloud computing, and then we had crypto, and now we've got ai. And it, it, it constantly reinvents itself. And I, I think as a CEO, you, you, you, you are paid to make a discerning decisions about new technology.

If you're a tech CEO and you don't know anything about tech, like, I, like, I don't know why that, that's, that's gonna lead right. Probably to the wrong decision or a, or, or, or a dead end. Um, and, and so I think with ai, any new trend that comes along, I think you sort of ignore it at your peril.

Um, and I, I think you have to get engineers with hands-on product and get your hands dirty with the new thing to figure out like what it's all about. What, what, what is the state of it? What is the art of the possible here?

And then, you know, you, you've gotta make a decision, uh, regardless of what the hype says, because, you know, again, in tech, we always over-hype everything, and it always takes longer to come to fruition than we ever imagined. Yes, yes. Probably AI and GPT has been more hype than ever, than any technology has been hyped in history.

Um, but there's something there, right? It, it, it promises to change the interaction model between humans and machines. Yeah.

Um, if I can interact with something using a natural language, that's a good thing. That means more people can take advantage of technology. It means that more junior people can do more involved tasks.

Yeah. Um, it means that we spend less time getting up to speed with something, right. And more time actually doing work.

So to me that there is real value there. I think what is unproven at this point is, um, is there a business model behind it? Again, as a CEO, we're not in tech for the, for the sake of tech, we're in tech to make money.

And so we know that there are costs associated with ai. We have to train models, right? Um, we've gotta, we've gotta pay to, to make a, API call to, to open ai.

And so then the question's gonna be is, you know, with that additional cost, if I add my profit margin, can I charge an additional amount in order to pay for it? Is it, is it a new revenue stream? Um, or, or is it just something which is gonna make my existing product better?

You know? Yeah. Um, so I think, I think that that's sort of the phase that we're in right now.

I I think we're all believers that there's some value there. Yeah. Um, I joke with folks that I don't know whether it's the next, uh, blockchain or the next cloud, um, ah, not to people who say it's bigger than cloud.

Um, yeah. I think the reality is maybe it's somewhere in between those two. And, and so we're in the mode of deciding or, or trying to figure out, all right, how, how does AI make observability better?

And, and, and B, like, can we charge additional money for AI driven features within the product? Um, so yeah, it, it, it's, you know, sort of dive in, but don't bet your company on it until you've got good data. And I always get, I will always get the data from the engineering team as to what they're saying.

And then once we believe in the technology, then it's about the business model. Okay, can we make money? You know?

Yeah. So lot, lot to consider, A lot to consider. You're right.

But it, it's phased. Um, but to your point, it has to be able to deliver value and, uh, differentiation. I think for, for businesses, we are, give us some kind of practical, uh, applications and AI automation data in marketing at observe.

And, and what do you look for in terms of data science impacting value impacting pipeline? Yeah, we, we, we don't use a lot of, uh, I mean, AI is the label attached to everything right now? Anything that has an algorithm is ai.

Um, yeah. I mean, we certainly use generative AI in our product, and it makes our product better. And we've got, you know, um, a few hundred monthly active users that derive value.

We, we haven't actually been able to charge more value for that yet. Uh, sorry. More, more money for that value yet.

Okay. Um, in terms of using it in our business, we, we, we certainly do sort of pipeline and like statistical analysis of data, uh, to try and understand, um, n not not just what the number's gonna be next quarter, but the probability of deals closing. Um, to, to me, I think that is sort of a well trodden path in, in the, in the realm of, uh, sales.

Um, from a marketing standpoint, it, it, it, it's kind of interesting right now, um, that there are many who believe that all content will be done by, uh, like a, a, a generative ai, uh, chat, GPT type, uh, uh, is it, uh, interface. And on my website will be written by one. Yeah.

I think my, my view of it is yes, but, um, I mean, if you looked at any of the content that GPT generates, it's, it's actually very well generated and it makes sense. Um, there's not a lot of depth to it. Y yes, you can prompt more to get more depth for sure, but you, I think as marketers, you've gotta ask the question, what makes content compelling?

Yeah. And, and for me, compelling content, clearly something that's well written that's got a bit of soul to it, that's maybe even got a sense of humor to it, but that is got some depth to it, and I do file a, find a lot of the generated content doesn't have that much depth to it. Um, and so I still think that to reach people, probably more so in future to, to reach people online, you're gonna have to work harder to get that like sort of depth of, of, of content that Yeah.

You know, people wanna read, because there's a, the cynics viewpoint here would be that, like the world just gets full of 10 x more inci content and we completely lose people online. You know, what happens on sort of LinkedIn and you, you know, sort of web and social channels is what, what, what, what's happened on email? You c you can't get a response to save your life.

Yes. And, um, and, and so a lot of sort of incipient generic content is just gonna have that effect. People are gonna switch off, they're not gonna see it anymore.

And, and so one of two things will happen is people will realize that, okay, I've, I've gotta be a bit smarter. May maybe I can have someone assist me with my content generation at like a, maybe AI can assist me, but Right. Without the, my knowledge and a bit of smart superior, I'm, I'm not gonna produce something compelling.

Um, all we've gotta move to another form of delivering the message, which could be interesting, you know, like Also the emotional piece. Sorry, say again? Also the emotional piece.

You talked about, you know, some of the things generated by chat GPT don't have a ton of depth. There's also no emotion there. So I still think it's, it's humans plus ai.

I like the word that you used as assistance. I think that's, that's a great positioning for that. Yeah.

I, I think that's the sweet spot for ai. I, I, I think it, it, I think it helps humans do a better job. Yes.

But you let it do the entire job. I think you end up in like a very sort of mediocre generic, um, Yes. Generic, yes.

Me, you know, uh, yeah. What was that? What was that?

Uh, movie, uh, Pleasantville kind of world? It's, it's, it's this sort of like, oh, yes, idealistic, but boring place, you know? Yeah.

Everything's generic. Doesn't work, but Nothing's interesting, you know? Exactly, Exactly.

You've done such a great job kind of explaining the CEO's perspective of marketing, sales, engineering, and the dynamics, the relationship, the uses of emerging technologies, the need for strong business cases over your history and career, which we touched on a little bit. What is, uh, uh, a failed to fab story that comes to mind where there was an initiative or a program that wasn't going according to plan? You guys came in, whether it was marketing, uh, or others within the organization, and really course corrected quickly to deliver, really impact the business.

What, what story comes to mind there? Yeah, the, I've got a few of them, but the one, the one that, uh, sticks in my mind, because I think it was, it was all marketing, was, um, you know, probably 10 years ago it was very popular to try and educate customers on reference architectures for solving certain problems. Um, and, and reference architectures are really boring.

It's basically a, a, a, a specification or a white paper or a document that describes what you would implement. It's, it's mind-numbing stuff, but, but un unless you're implementing something, in which case it's the how to instructions of, of solving the problem. So, yeah, so it, it, it's sort of interesting but dull.

Um, and we were trying to market these reference architectures and, um, there were really specifications and, and we came up with the idea of, uh, maybe we could make it look like a product. People like products. Why?

Because you can see them and touch them and use them and, you know, we can produce like, you know, great pho photographic imagery of them and, you know, people can emotionally connect with them. And so we thought, well, okay, specifications, specs, what if, what if we, we created something called V Specs. So I was at BMC at the time, and everything began with a v, you know, we had Vmax and vnx and, you know, uh, everything was, was v so, well, what, what about v specs?

And, and, and so we, we were like, okay, we, we could create a v specs, uh, array, you know, cabinet, um, only we didn't have to really create it. We could just, you know, create a picture of it. Yeah.

Um, and, and, and then we, we actually thought, that's such a good idea. Why don't we let, 'cause it was many our partners that would love these specifications because they would go to the customer, the customer would be convinced that they could solve the problem. The partner would go away, put a whole bunch of like, Cisco gear and VMware and EMC in this cabinet, and then ship it to the customer.

And so the partners loved it because it, it made them not look like integrators, but, but product people, you know, we can deliver you this. You see this beautiful array, you know, branded EMC, we can deliver you everything that you want to solve this problem in, in, in this box. And so it was pure marketing, but it took off like wildfire because the folks that we would market to and the folks our channel partners would market to, were used to buying products, and they would get quite skeptical, oh, it's like a bill of materials and what you're gonna put it together and well, how much is that gonna cost?

But in their mind though, if they could buy a product and that was gonna turn up on their doorstep and Boone, I plug it in and up I go, you know, that, that's a lot more compelling. But, um, yeah, I think that's probably one of the better examples where just a bit of creative marketing, uh, allowed people's perception of something to to, to change dramatically. Yeah.

And, and also really not just changing perception, but meeting customers where they are, where they want to be, which is always critical. Um, last question for you, Jeremy. I know you guys got, had observe a big round of, of funding recently.

Congratulations on that. What's next for observe? You talked about kind of marketing now is becoming more of a strategic piece, but what, what are some of the things that we can expect to see in the next six months or so?

Yeah, we, we have a big launch coming in, uh, end of September. We call it Voyager. So, uh, I won't spill the beans on that.

Um, we're really ramping up our sales team. We're ramping up our field events team. We have a, a, a wonderful lady, Kristen Lyles, uh, running that group.

We, we have very much have a direct sales motion, enterprise selling motion. Um, so clearly sort of high touch customer events. We've, we've found actually the smaller, more intimate events are becoming more and more popular again.

We, we've actually found a drop off on a lot of the digital LinkedIn. I dunno whether it's a post covid burnout or, or, or what. But a lot of the small, more intimate field-based events tend to go really well.

And these are, I mean, things are like wine testing and, you know, yeah. Making margaritas and not all to do with alcohol, but, um, many of those go down really, really well. And then, yeah, we're, we're ramping the product marketing team as well.

As I mentioned earlier, a product market. Yeah. I think just becomes more and more important, uh, because then, you know, now we have a PR agency and the communications team, well, they need messaging because they've gotta pitch it to, you know, whoever.

Um, yeah. So yeah, there's a, a lot going on in, in, in, in the marketing, uh, area, and I said, I'll, I'll run. That's Outstanding For this launch at the end of the, uh, Anything.

Excellent. Well, we'll keep our eyes out for Voyager in September. And I, I thank you so much for taking the time again to be on the program.

I, I love the perspective that you've given our audience of the CEO expectations on marketing and how it changes depending on where an organization is in its maturity, that's invaluable content. So Jeremy, thank you again for giving us the time and for imparting wisdom on our audience. All right.

Thank you. We wanna thank you for watching this episode of Marketing, art and Science, and remind you the next episode comes out in two weeks. For Jeremy Burton, I'm Lisa Martin.

Thanks for watching.