The Impact of Generative AI at UiPath – Marketing: Art and Science – EP12

Hey everyone. Good to see you. Welcome back to Marketing, art and Science, the webcast podcast, where I, Lisa Martin sit down with CMOs regularly and we talk about the artistry, the science of marketing, and how these CMOs are pulling those levers, flexing those muscles to convert prospects to loyal customers.

I'm so pleased to welcome today's guest, my longtime friend and colleague, Ivana Karens, the emea, CMO of UiPath. Ivana, it's so great to see you. It's so good to be here.

Thanks for having me. My pleasure. And I'm excited for the audience to learn from you.

Let's go ahead and kick off with your background. You and I go way back 10 plus years or so to our TIBCO marketing days. Talk to the audience about your ascent to the level of CMO for aea.

For UiPath. Yeah. Um, I mean, I started my career in journalism, funnily enough, so kind of an unusual, yeah, an unusual entry into market.

My gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

So I, I worked in radio and TV for a number of years, um, and I entered marketing kind of through public relations. So I, I had studied PR as part of my journalism masters, and I moved into marketing that way. Uh, worked in comms for a number of years and then started to broaden my remit a bit, moved into field marketing, then account-based marketing was added on, and then digital marketing, and then, then a little bit of product marketing.

And then I moved into BDR management as well. Um, and so kind of throughout the career, I suppose my career now has spans 20 years. Makes me feel old to say that I know, right?

That career, I've kind of touched on all aspects of marketing. Um, so yeah, it was kind of an unusual route to marketing, but an enjoyable one on that. SI love that.

Well, it gives you such fresh perspective, especially from a communications standpoint. You know, what the mainstream media is looking for. And that's always a hard one because we're so used to talking with audiences and taking very technical information and distilling it down to digestible components.

And when you're doing TV and radio, it's gotta be even more. So get the audience a little bit of over with. Anyone's not familiar with UiPath.

I know that you guys are delivering AI for the real world enterprise, and we can't go a day without talking about ai. Tell us about UiPath and how does it deliver on that? Yeah, so we kind of grew up in what's called the era of Robotic process automation, which is RPA.

And that really was all about automating backend mundane processes. And, you know, we still build on that every day. It's still our foundation.

Um, you know, we're now moving into, you know, more intelligent ai, if you will, uh, looking at things like Egen ai, which is kind of the next big thing, uh, that's on the horizon. But primarily, I mean, if I was to put it really simply, we help organizations to be more efficient, to enable their people to be more efficient and focus on the more strategic, more creative tasks, rather than having to be bowed down by, you know, documents. And, you know, extracting information from documents or, you know, invoicing in the realm of finance is a, is a very complex thing and very time consuming, but very mundane for the most part.

So it's taken the mundane out of work and allowing humans to flourish and focus on what's more important. I love that. And everyone wants that.

No one wants to be bogged down with the mundane task that you're checking up checklists. They really wanna be able to get creative and strategic for the most part. Love that.

Right. Let's dig in now to the MarTech stack. So I always love talking with CMOs like you about MarTech in action and how it's taking someone from a prospect who's out there doing their own research on UiPath and automation to a loyal advocate customer.

So give us a little kind of a high level overview of the Mark marketing technology stack at UiPath and, and what it's doing to convert those prospects to advocates. Yeah, I mean, I would probably say our tech stack is a little bit too comprehensive. You know, we probably could look at streamlining a little bit bit, but we do definitely have a tool for almost everything.

And, you know, some of those tools are better than others, but I would say a lot of our tools are focused on, you know, primarily the top of the funnel initially. How do we get those prospects engaged? Those people who are doing their own research, who haven't really reached out to UiPath as yet.

I mean, we call that the dark funnel. Like how do you get UiPath in front of people who are just educating themselves early on in their buying cycle? How do you engage them with a po, uh, to a point where they will want to learn more later on when they are ready to buy?

And there's so many tools out there that can help you to do that in a really good way. I mean, there's one tool that I love, which is Six Sense, which really helps to increase that level of engagement. It helps us to really target different buying groups, you know, and really get to the peak the decision makers within those buying groups, and ensuring that they're aware throughout their buying cycle.

And I think, you know, a lot of the tech out there today is really helping us to be much more intelligent around the type of content that we place in front of prospective buyers right, throughout their journey. You know, 'cause the type of content you want to position, you know, very early on in the journey is very different from the type of content you want to position in the middle or at the bottom of the funnel. So, you know, getting the right content in front of the right audience at the right time, I think is hugely important.

That's what it's all about. And so figuring out what tools can help us to do that, I think we've, you know, it's really helped us to refine our demand generation activities to become a whole lot more personalized in how we're reaching out to people so that we're putting messages out there that are resonating, uh, with the right audiences. And, you know, it's always necessary to, to do that at the right time.

And, you know, I think that there's so many tools. Like, I mean, obviously all the data analytics tools, you know, mark Marketo is our marketing automation tool. You know, we've got tools for AB testing, SEO, social, you know, all of those tools.

I think it's about how you use them, you know, to make sure that you are positioning your message in the right way to the right audience. And, you know, that's a difficult thing to do. But I think marketing has become so different now with ai, uh, infused into it that we we're becoming, I think, a little bit more, you know, focused on our buyer and on a little bit more customer centric, which we need to be.

And really getting to understand our customers. You know, this spray and pray effect is gone long gone. I mean, thank God long gone.

It sure is, right? Yes. You Have to get targeted to a particular type of persona.

Um, and that's the kind of marketing I love. That's the marketing that excites me because there's an art Yeah. And a craft to that, if you will.

You know, you, you mentioned, you know, that the science behind it, there is a huge amount of science now behind how you do marketing effectively. I think it's hugely exciting. I love that.

It's one of my favorite things as a former life sciences person back in the day before I got into tech. And we've seen marketing evolve so much the last 10 years into being so scientific and being, and, and that's why we created this show to really understand how those two are coming together and how it changes. 'cause you, you talked about a great deal about the personalization element.

Yeah. The right content, the right message, the right time, the right person. We all expect that in our consumer lives.

Mm-Hmm. Which blend into our business lives, right? We just expect we're going to get delivered the right content that I'm looking for this right now.

Don't show me something similar that I bought yesterday or last year. I want you to know mean a non-creepy way, and deliver messages, content offers, product services that are relevant to what I'm looking for right now. And I love how you talked about really pulling the, the leverage.

You mentioned Six Sense, A lot of my CMOs on the show talked about Six Sense and how great it is for doing just that, but it's so incredibly important to be able to flex those, those AI muscles. We'll talk about that in a little bit too, as, as well as the artistry. So how do you blend the two or pull those levers of the science piece and the art piece, and like, what does each one mean to you and to UiPath?

Yeah. You know, I, I think this is a really interesting one because, you know, it's almost about getting the fusion of the art and the science, right? And, you know, I always think of that left brain right brain analogy.

You know, if you just have all creative marketers, you're gonna have great content, but you want who to target, and you definitely won't know how to get to them in a very personalized way, you know? And and similarly, if you just have those analytic type marketers, you know, you won't have any content that's gonna resonate, but you'll surely know who to go after. But with what, so, you know, getting that mix of the art and the science right, is critical in marketing now.

And, you know, building teams, you have to think about that. You have to think about the creative folks as well as those analytical folks. And then how do you bring the two together?

And, you know, it, it can be difficult because if you are leaning too heavy on one side versus the other, you know, your marketing is not going to be as effective as you want it to be. But when you get it right, that's when the real magic happens. You know?

And I just love sometimes when you do see the, the, the fusion, you know, come together in the right way. You know, the, the, the creativity and the results that you can get from that. I mean, it really is like watching magic happen, you know, when you see, you know, the campaigns going out and the impact that they're having ultimately on pipeline of revenue, because, you know, that's the ultimate success of marketing.

But, you know, when it does happen in the right way, it really is phenomenal to watch. It is magic, isn't it? It's so fun to see all those levers being ticked in the right direction.

Talk a little bit about the impact because you, you talked, you just said it, it's all about, at the end of the day, from a marketing perspective to influence pipeline and impact revenue. Yep. How are you guys at UiPath doing that, leveraging the technology that aren't the science?

Yeah, I mean, I think for me it's about mapping out the buyer journey, um, and then figuring out where the tech can help you, right? So, you know, and I think it's also understanding who you wanna go after, right? Who are your target audiences, you know?

And that may be different for different product lines that you have, um, you know, within your, your, your platform. Um, but really understanding that at the outset, I think is most important. And then, you know, as I said, figuring out where the tech is really going to help you to do more.

You know, it, it, the tech should compliment your overall strategy. It isn't the strategy in itself, you know, and I think some marketers become a little bit too reliant on the tech, but I think if you can get the tech right and understand what the tech can do for you throughout that buyer journey, I think that's when you'll start to see impact. You know, and I think we, we thought long and hard about, you know, I, I mentioned Six Sense as as a tool, you know, but again, we were very clear on who we were going after.

You know, we know our buying groups very, very clearly. And what we really wanted to do was to track that level of engagement across those buying groups, and then watch how we improve that over time. You know, or, uh, if it's dis improving, obviously we need to take, um, you know, action to, uh, to fix that.

But, you know, I think it's been quite interesting that, you know, we, when we, when you integrate advanced tools like such as marketing automation, you're obviously the CRM and data analytic platforms. And, you know, I think it really helps to streamline your de demand generation efforts and your nurturing efforts so that you become much more targeted. And then you can, you know, you can achieve higher quality leads that you're passing over to your business development team than to qualify.

And then you see greater efficiency through the follow, you know, your pipeline is greater, you know, that pipeline is created a little bit faster. You know, you're improving win rates, you're improving the time to value, and these are all the things that we're using our marketing tools to measure, you know, what are we doing to improve overall pipe creation, pipe acceleration, you know, how are we helping to improve those win rates, you know, reduce the, uh, the buying cycle, et cetera. These are things that we are measuring and, you know, there's fantastic data automation, uh, tools to help us to do that.

And, you know, I think when that all comes together, you know, you really can show the value that marketing brings to a business and the impact that it has, you know, ultimately on revenue, uh, over time. But I think once you can measure that and demonstrate that to the business, I think that's when you really begin to see, you know, the return on investment of, you know, not only the tools that you're using, but you know, the, the whole marketing organization, um, of a company Really elevating it up to c-Suite to be, this is a, a critical business partner for us across sales, finance, operations, you name it. Marketing is a, is a really integral cog in the, in this well oiled machine that is absolutely UiPath.

And you've done a great job of articulating how you do that and why it's so important. Hmm. Absolutely.

You know, I think, I think you, you, you know, there's always a bit of conflict between, you know, sales and marketing sometimes, you know, who's generating the pipeline, where is the pipeline coming from? But I think, you know, if you have the right tools in your, in your tech stack, and you can align, you know, from the top down in an organization about how you're going to measure that, you know, and how you're gonna report on that on a regular basis, I think that's when you can really start to build that partnership that you just spoke about. And that's when marketing really gets the seat at the table.

Right. You know, because, you know, that is, is, is so merited because, you know, we bring in a significant portion of pipeline, we influence a significant por portion of pipeline that, you know, obviously results in a significant portion of revenue. And so really, you know, understanding the art and the science of marketing is only going to make us more effective and, you know, hopefully contribute to more pipeline and more revenue in the future And better partners with sales.

How, how has the MarTech stack that you've implemented that you've talked about, it sounds like you've got great alignment with sales. How has it influenced and maybe helped improve that sales relationship? Because they probably now have visibility in data and their customers, prospects and customers that they didn't have before, which is huge.

And, and that's the bottom line. You know, a salesperson really thinks about how can marketing help me? You know, and you know, when, when you're using certain tools that help them to understand how an account is engaging, you know, who's engaging, what they're looking at, getting some sense of their intent to buy.

I mean, this type of data is gold for a salesperson. Yeah. You know, that automatically brings marketing closer to sales, you know, and then I think helping them to understand the way we measure success in marketing, you know, and, and then being very transparent about that, you know, and, you know, there has to be transparency in the numbers, you know, but once you start to, you know, cloud over or, you know, you start to, you know, um, increase the marketing contribution beyond what it actually is, you're just doing a major disservice to marketing.

You know, you're killing relationship between sales and marketing, and you're, you're losing credibility. So the transparency, the alignment, you know, all of that has to be there, and the trust has to be there as well. And, you know, I think that's when marketing truly becomes a partner rather than just a service.

You know, that helps, uh, salespeople do their job. They become a true partner for sales, you know, and that's when they get that seat at the table that I referred to earlier. And you, when you mentioned trust, I was thinking that the whole last few minutes, that is currency these days.

Yes. Trust between a brand and prospects a brand, and its existing customers, sales, marketing, key functions. It is absolutely table stakes Yes.

For selling relationships and ultimately the impact on the UiPath brand that marketing wants to deliver. So how, how does the tech stack, the relationships that you've put in place within marketing and within other key partners in the organization, how has it influenced UI Path's brand? Oh, I, I think it's influenced the brand quite a bit.

And you know, I think you touched on a really important point, and I think it's a, it's a, it's a kind of a new development in marketing, you know, this, this whole notion of truth, you know, I mean, always people have this picture of marketing as, you know, it's, it's a version of the truth. You know, it's a rb, it's, you know, exaggerated. I mean, I think we have to get back to the truth, you know, and really reinforcing, you know, the true, you know, differentiation of a product.

You know, if you, because you know, all you're going to lead to in the long run is a disappointed customer, you know? So you have to think of long run the impact it's gonna have on your business, on your customers, on their satisfaction levels if you, if you oversell, you know, what the, the company does. So, you know, I think a level of truth, and getting back to honesty in marketing, I think is a, a really important kind of movement, if you will, within marketing.

And I think, I think it's only a good thing, you know, there's so much fake news out there. There's so much, you know, oh my God, Yes. This, That you have to just, you know, say it as it is, obviously in a very engaging way, you know, over multiple different channels.

But, you know, ultimately for me, it's about the personalization of the message, the truth, you know, um, and reinforcing the truth and knowing your customer, you know, knowing what they want. Yeah. And then, you know, giving them what they want when they most need it.

That's when, you know, marketing really shines. That's when you know, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're having an impact, a real impact on the business. That truth is, is absolutely essential.

And it's a great way to differentiate a brand as well. You mentioned fake news, and it's out there and it proliferates faster than we can even comprehend faster than we can identify and stop it. And so for brands to be truthful with their customers is just no longer a nice to have.

It's something that every brand needs to implement. Let's move into kind of our third topic. And as, let's look at, we talked about AI briefly.

Yes. Emerging technologies. Hmm.

Some help us understand some of the practical applications of AI at UiPath in marketing within the technologies that you're selling as well. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we, we actually use our own technology in marketing. It's, uh, really quite amazing. You know, we have, uh, do, uh, products called Document Understanding and Comms Mining, you know, and really what Document Understanding does is it reads large amounts of documents and pulls out, you know, important information so that you don't have to go through all of that detail.

So, you know, again, it's a, it's the kind of prompts that you give it, you know, what is it that you want from that document? But it saves my team so much time in using these types of tools. You know, comms, mining, you know, helps to go through emails looking for certain things.

You know, it can summarize, you know, um, a number of emails after a holiday and highlight, you know, what are the key things you need to focus on? Where do you need to prioritize, you know, those 350 emails that you missed while you were on vacation. So, you know, we are using our own technology, um, a great deal in marketing, and it is making our lives a whole lot easier.

But I think, you know, the, the future and where we can go, even where our product is going now, um, you know, with, with this whole notion of agentic AI and using agents, you know, that work together with robots and humans, you know, I think they, the possibilities are endless. And I think, you know, what that will do for marketing in the future, I think is it's, it's exciting and scary, honestly. Yeah.

All at the same time. Yeah. But, you know, anything that takes away mundane work for me, uh, I'll take it all day long.

I, yeah, I hear you. Exactly. And I love, I love stories of drinking your own champagne.

Yeah. Um, people always ask me why I say that, because you know how much I love dogs. You've known me a long time eating your own dog, but I'm like, champagne just has like, pinky out kind of flare.

Sounds not fair. So I like that. When you, and kind of, if we, if we peel back kind of the layers of marketing, what are some of the areas in which AI, gen AI is really helping you guys move that efficiency meter?

And I think of like customer data analysis, customer journey orchestration, personalized content creation. What are some those key areas and use cases that you are really seeing great results? Yeah, I think, I think one of the areas that I love, it's, you know, if we create video content, 'cause, you know, everybody talks about text, you know, text-based content and what you can do, AI can do with text.

But I think the, you know, the, the opportunities in, in the world of video and dynamic content, I think is really exciting. Um, you know, the ability to actually create a video and then, you know, the video might be 20 minutes long. And then to, you know, put an input to the tool to say, okay, now give me a 32nd video that's good for LinkedIn and give me, you know, a two minuter that's good for, you know, YouTube or, you know, and he will literally spit back out what you want with very little work on any anyone's side.

And, you know, there's, there's time saving in that. There's massive cost savings. Sure.

You know? Yes. Where you work with agencies to create each version of that video, you know, and the time it creates for them to write the script and then create it intuitive and all this sort of stuff.

I mean, you can actually get multiple outputs from one piece of content. And you know, what I think is really fantastic is that if you have one hero piece of content, it might be a white paper, for example, from that you can bring to life any amount of content, you know, from emails that you'll send to your customers, short videos that, uh, scripts that you'll create. And you could even use certain tools to create the video.

You know, that'll, uh, create an avatar of you using your own voice. You know, it's, it's, it's phenomenal the possibilities, you know, and I think for marketing, it's only going to make things obviously move a whole lot faster, you know? Yeah.

I think it'll make marketing very, very exciting, but also I think very impactful, even more impactful than it is today, because you will, you know, the, the ability to know what your customer wants before they almost know it themselves. I think that's the Yes. Sort of scary part, but also the exciting part because the Yes.

Level of personalization there is, you know, through the roof. So, you know, I, I, I think there's just endless possibilities with ai. It is a little bit scary, you know, you need to have those guardrails, the governance, the ethics about all of has to be in place.

But I think, you know, the possibilities, you know, they, they are really exciting for me when I think about it, you know? And, and I hope I'm around to see, and I'm still working in marketing to see it come to fruition because I think it's beyond our wildest dreams. It really is.

There's so much we don't, there's what, what fascinates me is there's questions we don't even know we have yet that probably can already answer is so Absolutely. It's just the whole crystal ball element of it is, is fascinating. And also working on the personalization piece, because we, I I mentioned in our consumer lives, we just expect that yeah, we expect that brands will know us, um, yep.

Anticipate if I bought a tent, anticipate what I might want next. So it should be more tents. Exactly.

Should we and can able do that, show coolers Yes. Relevant contact. You can do that In a business world.

I mean, you know, the possibilities are phenomenal, you know, to say, well, you know, you bought this product, but, you know, instead of having to a salesperson to think about, well, now, you know, they've used this product for this amount of time, they might be ready for this, you know, technology will do all that for us, you know, and they will preempt and predict what it is that we want to do next. And, you know, I mean, it's, it's kind of scary what that means, uh, for, for, for marketing in the future, but, but also very exciting, as I said. Absolutely.

I share your enthusiasm and your excitement for, I I, I don't know about you. I always feel like being in technology, especially as a marketer, we have an opportunity to help the masses understand better all of the positive applications of AI that are already exton that they might not be aware of. Because the mass media is so focused on the fake news and, and, and harm.

And we see those stories get elevated more so than the positive stories. Do you feel kind of like a sense of responsibility there in terms of let's help spread the word on all the good AI already doing? Absolutely.

You know, there's a lot of scare mongering, I think, around ai. Yeah. And, you know, AI is gonna replace humans and what will humans do, and all of this, you know, I, I don't think there's a point in the, in the near future where, you know, AI will fully replace humans.

You know, I think it'll free humans up to do so much more, you know, and to really focus on things that need human focus and, you know, put all that other stuff to, to a robot or an agent or, or, or whatever. But, you know, I, I, I think, you know, we need to really be careful about, you know, putting guardrails around things. You know, I think the, you know, the, the governance around AI is something that we, you know, have to figure out, you know, not only as UiPath, but right across the world, it affects everybody.

Yeah. You know, and I, and I think the governance and the ethics piece, you know, I think there are, there are pieces that we, we really need to get on top of. But, you know, honestly, I think, you know, the excitement for me surpasses any negatives.

You know, I, I think it's going to be a, a really fun world, you know, when, when AI and, and agentic AI and all these, you know, future iterations of AI kick into place, I think it's just going to be, you know, very, very fast moving. But, but very fun indeed. Yes.

I think so too. I assure your, your excitement about that. And, and I'll, and I see a lot of positive aspects.

You know, when I, when I talk to the mainstream media like Schwab network, there's like, you know, there's so much investment going on in ai. We talk about the Nvidia and the Magnificent seven and, and, and investors are like, where is the ROI in this? But, but monetizing AI is challenging.

Do you, are we not there yet? 'cause a lot of what we're seeing when I talk to marketers, um, is efficiency gains, which to your point earlier, that can contribute to cost savings. But do you feel there's some pressure to start monetizing the investment in ai?

Oh, Yeah. I mean, companies are investing so much in ai then the, the obvious next thing is, okay, show me the ROI before we keep investing at this rate. Yeah.

So I think there's a massive pressure coming, but, you know, I think when we speak to a lot of our customers, we tend to assume they're much further along on their AI journey than they are. You know, we tend to assume they've got it figured out. But the, the, the issue is, is they don't, you know, many are trying to figure out what their AI strategy for the future should be.

And many of these companies are turning to us to say, you know, well, what should I be thinking of? You know, is there something I'm missing here? Am I behind the curve?

And everybody's assuming everybody else is way further ahead than they are, you know? But the truth of the matter is, a lot of companies are really only starting their AI journey, you know, and, and they're onboarding, you know, into ai, you know, quite slowly and surely. But they have to, to your point, be able to show ROI for the level of investments that they're making.

And that's where, you know, it, it becomes a boardroom issue. You know, how much we investing in ai, what's the return, et cetera. But, you know, I think we're very early stage in adoption agree of the AI across companies.

And that real ROI is still yet to be shown, to be frank in a lot of cases. Absolutely. Well, so many companies are still on the pilot phases.

And you bring up a great point about, of everyone, you go to any tech event, which you and I go to all the time, and AI is part of the, of the theme. It's infused into the keynote, it's infused into every conversation that we have on our show. Yeah.

Um, and, and, and the, and the kind of the, the scare tactic there is from, from senior leaders. Yeah. If you're not investing in ai, you are already behind.

And so there's that, oh my gosh, what are we doing? What, right? What are we not doing?

Mm-Hmm. But what, what we see, what you get to see, and I get to see as well as what's the reality right now? Right.

Is it perfect for the horse in terms of monetization? I think so. I think so.

But I think we have to keep moving forward and getting these quick wins, these efficiency gains, which can then companies can then, whether it's through the voice of the customer or whatnot, showing the value it's delivering back to the business. I do believe we'll get there, but I think it's a little early innings if we were to use an American baseball reference. Yeah.

I completely agree with you. We're really only at the starting phase, even though people think we're much further ahead. Yes.

We aren't, not, not in, in different, you know, in enterprise adoption of ai, I think it's still early days. It is Formula One, lap one. I'll, I'll give you a, a better EMEA reference there.

Last question for you. Uh, we love to, to wrap the show, Ivana with our Fail the fab segment, which is just really, I always say failure is not a bad effort. All, all the, the viewers and those tuning in goes, she says that every show.

It's true, but it is true. It's a learning opportunity. Talk to us about, uh, uh, whether it was a marketing initiative or a business initiative that wasn't going according to plan that you stepped in marketing, stepped in, and really converted that to a favorable Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I, I remember once being at a previous company was not U iPads, um, but we had a significant kind of setback in an, a highly anticipated product launch. Um, you know, there were unexpected technical issues, uh, I to put it mildly.

Um, and that, you know, resulted in really negative customer feedback. You know, so this had the potential to, you know, uh, affect our brand reputation, but instead of sort of succumbing to the failure, um, we decided to sort of use a blend of technology and strategic marketing to try and turn it around. And, and, and that's exactly what we did.

So we used actually social listening to kind of closely monitor what the customers were saying about the, you know, the glitches and, and the product itself. And we fed those pain points back to the tech team, you know, in real time. And then we used, uh, social media and email to keep our customers up to date on how we were fixing this in short, in a short timeframe.

Um, and then, you know, we, uh, we then actually targeted, um, yeah, we used actually data analytics to segment our customer base, um, to really identify the most loyal customers who would, had been affected by this. And then we reached out to them to give them early access to the revamped product. You know, we gave them discounts, et cetera, you know, and we got their feedback real time, which really kind of helped to Mm-Hmm.

You know, make sure that we weren't sort of in alienating them, that we were helping to regain their trust. And the other thing we did was we used, um, Marketo, uh, to nurture those that had shown initial interest, um, in, in the new product, but hadn't converted because of the technical glitches. Um, you know, we actually using, you know, case studies and positive, you know, customer feedback over time, we were actually able to convert quite a few of those.

So I think what actually, you know, turned out to be a, a ridiculous nightmare, you know, a a a failure turned into a kind of fab and favorable, you know, marketing initiative over time because it demonstrated the ability to leverage technology together with street strategic marketing, um, you know, to enable, you know, to turn it around. And then actually, you know, in the long run, they became more loyal customers because they liked the openness, the open way in which we dealt with what was, you know, turning out to be a failure at the beginning. But, you know, we, we salvaged it in the end.

Thank goodness, Transparency. That's a beautiful example of the blend of art and science coming together to convert something that, that had sudden hiccups that customers were really upset about, into something that was very favorable and fabulous. Ivana, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

It's always great to talk to you, but I, I love how much you leaned into the theme of the show. I think the audience is going to learn a ton from what you shared and your examples. We thank you so much for your time.

Oh, my pleasure. We wanna thank you for watching this latest episode of Marketing, art, and Science. I'm Sammo Advisor, Lisa Art, and for Ivan Karens.

We'll see you on the next show.