The State of Pipelines: Past, Present & Future – Part 3 – The CD Pipeline EP 3

Hi everyone, welcome to the state of pipelines past present and future. This is our monthly show which is co-produced along with our friends at the CDF continues delivery Foundation part of Linux foundation and every month we come in here. We talk about topics relevant to CDF.

Our most recent Series has been focusing each month on one of the eight fantastic projects that cvf manages operates. This month's show is on the project, Persia. In past shows we've touched on projects like Spinnaker and Jenkins and I'm sure many of you out there have heard of those and some of you out here may not have heard of Persia Persia, but it's important and it's a great project and you're going to find out today.

So stay tuned as we give you. A real load down here on Persia. Let me introduce you to our panel today.

First of all, I want to introduce you to Steve Taylor Steve welcome Steve's been on panels before with us. It's great to see you Steve. Why don't you give folks a little bit of your background?

So I'm Steve Taylor. I'm the CTO of deploy Hub. I am one of the lead Architects and contributors to the another open source project under the CD foundation called ortelius.

I work on the Persia project and I'm also on the CDF technical oversight committee. Fantastic Steve, it's good to have you on. Jumping from the CDF committee to the rust.

Foundation I believe right? I want to introduce you to Joel Murray Joel. Till I time is finance your name didn't I?

It's okay. I was gonna correct it as I said, please do. Yeah.

Hi everybody. I'm Joel Marcy. I'm the director of Technology at the rust Foundation.

The rest Foundation is independent nonprofit organization. Basically dedicated to stewarding the rust programming language nurturing the rust ecosystem and supporting the awesome maintainers that govern and develop the rest project in my former life. I worked at companies like Facebook / meta Intel work.

I consulted at Microsoft. So I then around the block in this industry, but my work with rust has started the last couple of years. So thanks for having me on fantastic and we're gonna hear more about the rest connection here during the show, but next let me introduce you to one of our favorite panelists.

She's always here for us and appreciate having her here. Interestingly she is now. She's a former member of the board of CDF, but she's now on the open ssf.

Board, which is the open source security Foundation also part of Linux Foundation Tracy Reagan. Hi Tracy, how are you? Hello, I am doing great.

And thank you Alan for having us today and having me on this is a great topic. So yes, I'm Tracy Reagan. I am on the board of the open Social Security Foundation.

I also was on the board of the CD foundation for quite some time and famous because I helped start the eclipse foundation. So open source is not new to me. I am the CEO of deploy hub.

and Steve is my partner and co-founder of deploy having what he didn't tell you is a prior to deploy have we started a company called open makes software which included a product called Meister which focused on the build space so our background for over 20 years was to help large organizations manage and secure builds and when we heard about Persia, I think we both got pretty excited about it. Great. Thanks and welcome Tracy.

I'll remember your guest panel member today is from the persea project in itself and it should hinge around soon. You're welcome. And if you wouldn't mind telling people a little bit about you.

Yeah. Hi everyone. I'm sudina I am the development manager on the Persia project before Persia.

I I used to manage other projects and I have been through you know, 20 years of working on different languages. And now now I'm actually working and learning on Persia as as I learned rust as well. So I'm really excited to bring this discussion to you and sort of share why we are doing this.

Absolutely. Last but certainly not least. She's not a panel member.

She's my co-host as well as being on the board of CDF and a whole bunch more stuff. She's gonna tell you about it's my friend Laurie larussa Lori welcome. Thanks for being here.

Lori I think you're our mute. I mean in the in the land of Zoom you think I would remember to hit unmute before I start talking. It's okay.

So anyway, so, yes, so thank you for for hosting. Again. The CD pipeline for the CDF.

It is a great partnership and I'm very happy to be here with our distinguished panelists. So I am the marketing Outreach chair for the CDF. I work with some other foundations and here today.

I am very excited to talk about Persia since this is the first open source project. I have been a part of from the beginning and to watch an open source project grow is fascinating. So I'm so glad that we have basically the founding members of the project here with us today as well as Joel who represents the rest Foundation to kind of talk about how Persia is really going to hopefully help secure the supply chain for technology moving forward.

Absolutely. So I guess I guess the place to start is what is purse here. Right and you know sort of sohinjer with your with being the manager here, I we got to go to you on that explain to our audience if you will, how would you describe what is percya do so Garcia is that is that tool that we are missing in in terms of using and building software what Persia aims to do is provide provide bills that can be verified that can that can be trusted by by Downstream ci/cd pipelines per se also provides, you know resilience against network of failures and Percy also provides a provenance log where you can you can find out how actually an open source Library came into being and how it was built and what components went into it and that is meant all of this together is meant to help improve the confidence in the kind of Open Source that you are using on your in your in your production systems.

And improve your release confidence in terms of you know, what what can be released what cannot be released and what are the possible actions you can take with with the open source that you're using. So as a tool though, it's a decentralized package manager. Right like that is exactly what we're what you're creating.

Yes. So as a tool it's a it's a decentralized system and it's a decent rest package manager. It builds these packages on Independent build nodes and all these build nodes do multinode verification.

There's a consensus mechanism which which drives this verification and then there is an immutable Ledger which stores all these information so that you can go back and look at it and find out whether you know, you're you're using the the right packages in your business. excellent So Joe, I you know what I some people in our audience may be that thing themselves is so what's the rust connection? Yeah, so percya is actually written in Rust for for those who may not know what Russ is.

It's well, it's good to start where rust isn't it seventh year is it's as stack overflows most love language and it's language. It's basically On The Rise and developers. Wanted to use it.

I like to tell the story about rust's kind of You know prominence in the world how you know Russ has made it as a programming language is that Linus Torvalds is blessing the Linux kernel to have your language as a supported option in it. So rust is a actually really taking off being used in many projects and given rusts. Prominence for being memory safe with high performance projects like Persia decided to use Russ as the language for its implementation given, you know security it's fast it, you know helps helps you develop quick.

And yeah, it's it's a really good language for these types of programs. Excellent, excellent. So now thank you both for that.

By the way. You know what Lori you mentioned. We have some of The Originators or help, you know, people have really helped found and put Persia together.

I feel If we didn't mention Steve Chen and and some of the work he did he's not here today. But if we're telling the Perseus story I it's hard for me to tell it without him. So I just want to shout that out.

Yes. Steven is definitely the Visionary behind Persia. He he is a big thinker and when he came up with this and shared it around it was it was great to see that the leadership at Jay frog I don't want to say jumped in we use all kinds of frogs terminology.

We kind of jumped in. Yeah and gave all part. Yeah.

Hops leaped. It's always about leaping forward and so I would love to ask Tracy like what made deploy Hub be one of our you know, one of the founding members one of the main contributors to help us to help, you know, build Persia before it was adopted into the CDF. And where do you see it going now that it's in So let's just think about where our heads are from as co-founders of deploy have we're pretty much we're really into.

Dependencies in s-bombs to be quite honest and I always tell people, you know, really good way to freak out a developer is to delete their bill directory. That will sit their hair on fire and then we're running down the Halls. I've done it to prove a point many many times.

Now. The first level of Defense right in security is knowing what packages are using and what what packages are going into your build. But as we learned in the solar winds breach is that we don't necessarily know what's in the your build one way to do.

That is let's say we all had we all wanted to approve something we would all go through and we'd need to ask each of us is this okay? Yes. Yes.

Yes and we would have knowledge about that being. Okay. Well, that's basically what persea is doing for the bill that's spreading it across multiple nodes looking at the package.

It's consuming and saying everybody's exactly the same so we know one wasn't one didn't have a particular breach or somebody snuck into that particular node and dropped a file there that we just collected up and pushed out into our into our final build. So that's really the the kind of would not that's what got me excited about Percy is like, you know, what you could delete as many Bill directories as you wanted and you should never be freaked out because it should be 100% repeatable across as many build nodes as you need to use and by doing so you're starting the first line into fence for securing your software supply chain. absolutely, and you know what I just Look all of us on here can test the test, you know testify to this and testimonial to it.

For a supply chain security this whole last bomb thing. It was a big story in 2022, but it's a big story heading into 2023 as well. right, we we've seen we've seen, you know some standardization if you will, but they're still competing formats for s bomb and everything else but really for me, here's the big story, right and we discuss it at a recent devops experience.

It's going to be big some other events that we're working on. Until we have entered the age of software factories. Right software is no longer a bespoke kind of craft that developers who can sit home or in their office kind of do on their own or in very small groups.

It has entered the Henry Ford stage of assembly line if you will, right and as such software Supply chains and so forth supply chain security. Are Paramount? Right and and Persia I think is probably one of the first kind of native not not a tool that was oh we're using it here, but it actually will work good over here.

We're gonna will adjust it. No person. She was designed from the ground up for this mission.

And you know as as this becomes more important this mission is is really important. comes Paramount so You know for those of you out there, that's why this is important. That's why you need to be be on top of this.

That was my passion for it Steve. I know you're really passionate though. Let's talk a little bit about what it means for you.

So for for me, I when Stephen Chen came to us and started talking about his idea. I was like, yes, we've been thinking about this for 20 years when we started our build tool and it was it was like, all right, but he took it to the next level bringing in the consensus part of it and it really does fix a big hole in the supply chain. Because there's so many places in the supply chain that you can introduce, you know vulnerabilities, you know, you can you can hack that process pretty easily and when Percy came along it was it was like yes, this is one of the one of the tools in the supply chain process that's gonna help fix a huge part of the vulnerability access points that can be introduced into software.

So that's where I saw that it was a you know, one of these Perfect Solutions to fit into the tool chain. Can you tell us a little bit more about the consensus and the idea of trust and verification? I think that that's something that is very interesting that we can kind of dig into a little bit.

Yeah, so I will go so there's there's two main pieces to Persia one is the the build consensus and then also the distributed package management. So on the bill consensus side, the idea is that you distribute the builds across multiple nodes, which could be multiple companies. We have companies like future way Oracle deploy J frog our all interested in being these build nodes and the idea is to pull the source code from the get repository build it on each one of these nodes and then determine through a consensus algorithm whether we came up with the same result.

And if we did come up with the same result, then it's good to go. And we actually store that artifact that we built and record it in the immutable ledger. So Downstream consumers can then verify, you know where this came from who built it those type of details.

What was a good commit that created all this information? So It's really important to have this consensus. Otherwise, you're just, you know back to developer building on their own laptop, and you never know what happens when you just build once and call it a day.

And I think I would oh go ahead Tracy. I want to mention in what he just said. Basically if you broke down and unpack what Steve just talked about.

We really are talking about meeting salsa levels. So if you don't know what salsa is it is a specification for securing builds, you know, there's four levels one is provenance basically one is minimizing tampering hardening the infrastructure against attacks, and then just being able to track the dependencies. If you were to look at the kind of the features that Persia provides you you could map them directly to salsa.

Now. I want to point out that builds are complex. They are really really complex and oftentimes you find the worst or that the easiest way to attack a system is to find the most complex system and go after that because it's going to have the most gaps the most holes.

So what Percy is doing is stuffing up those holes. So there isn't complete the complexity part of the the builds across these nodes is is locked down. And that's kind of the first step of salsa.

So if you're interested in salsa, it's slsa dot Dev is where you go to read about it. You could read through it and then understand what Persia is doing. Patrice e you brought up a good point and it's something that I think that we completely jumped over and we should maybe go back for a second is what is a supply chain attack?

Right? So here we are talking at a very high level what Persia does but we haven't even explained what it's trying to solve which is some supply chain attack. So I will throw this out there to see who like to answer what exactly is a supply chain attack and why we should be paying attention to it.

Well, let's say let's just call it a so supply chain covers many aspects of the software development lifecycle. Let's just focus on our pipeline. Where can we introduce?

a hacks Builds of the first place putting something in a package is a place where hack can be put and then you add to that package to the build and now you have solar winds, basically. But supply chain, the whole concept of supply chain is creating some really good visibility into what we are consuming while I was at the CD foundation in June somebody stopped and said, I would like to sit down and talk to you and he wanted to talk to me about peanut butter and how come we could do a recall in peanut butter, but we had no idea what our ingredients were for software. And why was it so hard when we're supposed to be smart people.

And I think that that really describes supply chain. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sorry Joe.

Were you gonna say something? Oh, no. I was just gonna just kind of echo my thoughts about supply chain attacks.

Basically the way I look at it is, you know, it's anywhere where anyone can introduce a malicious malicious code or vulnerability from the development of a project to the deployment of the project in anywhere in between and I was gonna say something just given that I'm from the rest Foundation just give us, you know, rust I think rightly. So as a reputation of being like a language that is secure and that can allow you to create secure software but even rust has Has its place in potentially being vulnerable. So for example, I think back in May but there Russ has these things called crates which are their packages and there's a crates that I/O repository where all those are stored and there was a great that got introduced that was named just a little bit off of a really popular one.

So the it was it's vulnerable to typo squatting and bunch of people downloaded this malicious crate. And so even Ross in with its secure reputation as it'ssues when it comes to software supply chain, and I think it's great that we're finally finding solutions to try to solve these problems. That's all I want to say.

I you're you're point. It's not lost when I talked about entering the age of the software Factory and Henry Ford and all that. I guess I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be You know there was a time when it developers developer team wrote.

Product or applications or what have you? And it was entirely made up of that custom code that code might have had vulnerabilities and it happens right a lot of vulnerabilities and software. But I think the game changer for today is that so many of our applications are assembled on an assembly line with third-party components.

A lot of those components are open source themselves. Right, maybe as much as 70 80% depending on who you believe right these open source, third party components that get assembled together with a little glue. No pun intended of custom code right putting it together.

And and there you go. It comes out the other end of the assembly line like a shiny new object. And and so when you have that sort of third party, Component element when you add that to it you I think that made software supply chain security.

Just this huge issue that it's become. Right, we we're not just responsible for the code. We wrote where responsible for the code we assembled or you know used in in doing this and It's a big problem.

I I'd like to ask another question. Look it's cool as heck here. Right?

We got we got the CDF. We got the open source security Foundation. We got we got three Foundation rights Foundation.

all here with the Nexus being supply chain security. right and I don't think people shouldn't Overlook that I think it talks exactly to why this this is so important. I wanted to talk a little bit about those the structure of the persea project.

Right now people get involved and how things move forward. You know so you can guess who I'm gonna ask about this. But yeah, I'm ready.

I'm ready to answer that. Yeah tell us so since the time Stephen chin was sort of evangelizing this idea. We were trying to figure out you know, how a team should be formed.

What what are the what is the structure that we need to to start off evolve from from kicking it off into into a really working project. And from the day one, we believe that this is not a one company one one team project. This has to be since open source is built by developed by the community.

It should be built by a project that is owned by the community. So we have we have been practicing all the kinds of Open Source things that a community like this would expect everything that we do is on GitHub everything that we do is is shared on slack in an open fashion. We have open meetings every two weeks to share about what architecture We are looking at what are the solutions we are thinking about we are welcoming new people answering their questions helping them understand why we exist and where they can help helping actually educating what like like Tracy said educating people about salsa and what are the number of gates that the CD pipeline has today that can that can be exploited and where percya can help so we have we have care that open culture this long and we continue to do that.

We have a very very lightweight but still personalized onboarding experience for anyone who joins I take it up on myself as my duty to sort of tell them why we are doing this how we are doing this where they can find information where they can go and find issues that again work on it's not only about contributing to code we have we have people like Lori helping us on daily basis to tell us, you know, our documentation is off your our website doesn't look the way it should look. And all of that, right, so we are encouraging people from all all aspects of you know software to help us, you know build this so that it can be owned by the community and run in a community fashion. And and what I'd like to add to that real quick is one of the things that we've recently introduced is a pair programming because we have new folks coming in that are just learning rust.

We actually pair them up with some of the folks that have been doing it for a while and that helps really ramp up people to start contributing pretty quick. So even if you're new to the the rest world we can help you out on that front as a contributor. Any word I think.

Of the things that makes this project really exciting. Now for me fish out of water being involved in an open source project from the beginning. I was just I went to the one of the kickoff meetings and I said never again.

This is insane. I don't know how anybody gets anything done. There's all this discussion.

Like, where's the like, what is this consensus decision making like, where's the lead? And then the more that you get immersed in? What open source is the more you realize that this is how you get things done.

This is how you make sure your project is working on all cylinders. And I think it's great today to have a project that's built in Rust that's been adopted and donated to the CDF that touches all of these different aspects of security and then to also see it Like grow and manifest like taking a language that is like the most beloved language and getting people that are maybe new to using it to be able to be first-time maintainers contributors users of a project. I think like for the CDF and just for someone who's outside looking in at what open source is this is a really cool like Melting Pot of what the community can do when it comes together to try and solve a problem.

And so Joel I'm gonna punt to you take your rust Foundation hat off you have you know, ask experience with working for a huge corporations if you were still working with one of those what would you think if you heard about project, Persia? Yeah, I mean I've been involved in. Starting an open source project from scratch myself.

I was the co-founder of a project called docusourist which is like a program which is a project that allows people to develop documentation of websites from scratch and I was you back Persia is using dakisaurus. Yes, I did it Circle. Oh, yeah, there we go, right and see I didn't even I didn't even maybe I should have known that but I didn't know that I know that so this is like really off the cuff stuff.

This is great. Yeah, so I mean I've been I was there from this design and now you know, it's it's a really mature well use project and I always kind of think like you remember, you know, an open source projects. You have those lock files like yarn Dot Lock and package lock dot Jason and everybody in the past.

These are files are so annoying actually now now with the software supply chain, there's actually those files actually become really important and so, you know, if Working on an open source project like docosaurus and having you know understanding the risks that are out there, especially in the in the npm world right in the node, you know npm package world. No sorts of things. Persia is like one of those projects that I wish we would have had back in the day to you know, utilize to ensure that all the packages that docosaurus for example was using was on the up and up and very secure.

And so I'm really glad that's tools like Persia are coming about to allow. Current and future open source projects to be able to feel a little bit better about how secure their projects actually are. And so one of the things I love is that open source projects using open source projects to build open source projects, right?

And yeah, let's let's get a little product pitch on ortilius because that's another open source project that is in the mix. So Steve retracey if you want to kind of give us the high level overview, so ortelius is a s-bomb and microservice catalog tool So when you are working in a microservices architecture, you have to create builds for every single container that you have out there, which means that every single container has their own s-bomb. It has their own version and sometimes when you deploy a microservice, you might deploy different versions of microservices to different clusters.

So you have something called Drift. So what what artillius does is it is a central catalog to track all of that information and to aggregate that data up to a logical application. So if you're logical application is consuming 10 or 15 or more microservices, and you need to generate an s-bomb.

Ortelius does that for you so you can you can see the consumption of microservices aggregated up to that logical level and understand what your application looks like and be able to produce the security reporting that you need as well as track the versions of the services that you're consuming. and then just to add on to that the fit between artillious and Persia is one one match made in heaven because the arterius understands the sbom and has it package information now we can then go over to Persia and say all right. Tell me more information about this package.

Where was it created who created? It was a consensus give me that information. What was the You know who built it that type of information is what artillius can Now consume from, Persia?

So when we go and start aggregating all these s-bombs and and microservices and components up to a logical application view will be able to go back and get a lot of detail that folks need to answer questions. Like, you know, where was this built was this a secured build or is this on somebody's laptop, you know, those types of questions will be able to answer and pull it all together between artillious and Persia. So this is the part open source that I find absolutely fascinating and the part that I think is why supply chain security is so important is so you're taking an open source project building on another open source project and having them work together, right?

And then you have this double security feature in and then you're building it in a secure, you know and a secure language. So I think it's just, you know outside or looking in it's really cool to see things when they start and how you can take tools that have already been built and have them work together to improve what your desired outcome is. So it's just it's a really cool way to show from the from the very beginning how different open source projects work to improve the overall tooling of a project.

So I think something else is really cool, too. I want to bring up Tracy. How did you guys?

Or tell us what where'd that name come from? So, um, if you think about what artillas is doing is we are pulling all of the information from the pipeline that's left in the field directories. And you know, they've all these different logs running and all these different places.

And we're mapping out. What a cluster looks like with all this data. So mapping is where that name came from Abraham ortelius was the first person to create a world atlas and he did that in the I believe it was the 1500s.

Which is a long time ago, that's a long time ago and the way he did ordering him. Yes. Trivia stuff here.

Go ahead the way he did it was he went around and he talked to all the cartographers it throughout Europe who were already mapping things and he laid those maps on top of each other and got the best guess of what the what what the truth really was and he allowed them to put their little logos on on the map. So it was I believe it was probably one of the first Tech open source projects because he used open he used Source from all these different individuals which they contributed to that world Atlas. I love it.

So did enjoy I I don't know. Do you know what what is what's what's behind the name Persia? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. So when we were researching the name actually through the reading I think Steven Chin came up with the Persia reference and the reference goes as follows in in ancient Greek history. It's it says that multiple armies used to communicate with each other about impending attacks or dangers that are coming their way and they used a set of torches to communicate a code saying that you know, if you receive these many if you see light at these many torches that means it's this and you need to be prepared for that and it was a distributed communication mechanism and the messages what about securing securing each other and keeping each other safe and we thought that is a good metaphor for for today when we are talking about supply chain security of software.

We are trying to keep everyone safe in this world. We are trying to do it in this decentralized fashion. So that's where the name comes from here.

Actually, Joe I picked you last to give you a chance to maybe look it up if you don't know, but where does rust where's the name Russ come from? oh now you put me on the spot and I no, I I actually don't know. I just know that it was developed at Mozilla.

I don't know why they named it rust and that's a really good question. I could I should look that up and I should that should have been the thing. I was looking up.

I was actually looking up where the name dakisaurus came from to make sure I knew that if you're wrong, oh that one when you get dark you saurus. So it was funny. I think this is where the time where the logo actually helped dictate the name.

We had someone on the team who was very good at drawing and Drew this really cute dinosaur holding a piece of paper that with lines on it that represented words and this I think you know say oh well, okay. What's what's a dinosaur right? You know, it's a good dinosaur.

Tyrannosaurus rex. Oh, okay. Let's combine the word document with tyranny, you know, it's with Tyrannosaurus and you get dakisaurus.

So it was pretty it was a pretty it was a pretty weird way to get a name, but it was pretty awesome. So You know what? It's this kind of trivia that makes the nerd in me crazy, but let me let me throw it out to the audience for you out there.

Go check out. Where did the name Russ? Come from from Mozilla Mozilla, of course spawned many many open source projects.

And if anyone knows there send it into us maybe we'll talk about it on the next show there might even be an Amazon gift card in there for you. com and we'll figure it out from there. Hey guys, we're running low on time.

What we haven't given people is a URL to go to for the for the purse your project so that if they can find out more maybe they want to get involved sit in Jerry again. I'm gonna throw it on you if it's okay. Yeah.

It is very simple Persia not IO so Pi are Sia or if you don't if you don't remember then the Persia the old country and replace that with the why and IO and on that website, you'll find a link to the GitHub. You'll find link to the Google Groups. You'll find us on Twitter.

You'll find videos of us talking about Persia at stand-ups at our architecture meet. At events all on our Persia YouTube channel. So check it all out.

We have a slack Channel we meet at and talk about Persia and day-to-day development. All of the links are in the footer of the of the website. io.

In in the other route is to head over to the Linux Foundation or the CDF and you can find both the Persia and ortelius through those organizations. I love it. Hey, Laurie.

I'm gonna give you last word and also maybe a quick update on what's new at CDF. Some cool. So thank you for that Alan.

And again, thank you to all of our panelists. I think what's really cool is to go over the naming and to start with ortelius being like could potentially have been the first open source project and now here we are creating Persia, which is hoping to build upon the the community of Open Source to secure the supply chain new things at the CDF. So we have cdcon coming up that will be announcing soon where it is when it's gonna be we're really excited about that.

We've got new aversions coming out of CD events Percy, I believe has a new version coming out as well. There are other projects that are continuing to make enhancements and move things forward. So as Steve Taylor said, if you go to CD dot Foundation, you could look at all of the projects on there or telius Persia Jenkins techton Jenkins X ship, right?

Why can't I ever remember all of them but they're all on there and That's really cool. We're moving things forward really happy to wrap up 2022 talking about Persia, which is the last onboarded project and looking forward to all the great things in 2023. So again, thanks for having us Allen and thanks to all the panelists.

In fact, I joined that thanks for hey, you know what for those out there hunting rust evidently his name for a fungus. Yes, you did parallel. Go figure.

Yeah. Google do Google save me. For what's interesting?

We went all the way back to the time of dinosaurs and from there to ancient Greece then to the 1500 Renaissance. And now we're here today so far supply chain Security in the CDF. We've got it all panel.

Thanks so much for joining us. I hope you have enjoyed this show do check out the CDF lenex Foundation do check out project Percy is and I'm not going to say it right Tracy. Not Australia's or chiliates artillious with an egg.

And CD events, too. I really encourage people to really learn about CD events. It should disrupt the way we do pipeline management.

excellent We will be back next month Laurie, you know better than me. What what is on deck for next you know? I think we're gonna do some thought leadership stuff maybe around interoperability.

So definitely the event stuff as well. Absolutely and I also want to mention the beginning the show I gave the title of this episode, but the show itself is CD pipeline by the CDF. So you can find it on texture on TV and a bunch of other places under that.

Anyway everyone. This is our last show before the holidays. Happy holiday holidays healthy Holidays.

Happy holidays everywhere after the first of the year, bye-bye.