Continuous Delivery and the End User Community – The CD Pipeline EP 5

Hey everyone, welcome to the CD pipeline show here on techstrong TV. We're happy to have you join us today. For those of you who may be joining us for the first time.

The CD pipeline is a joint effort of us here at Tech strong and our good friends at the CBF the CD Foundation, which is part of the Linux foundation, and we put this on as I mentioned every month to kind of illuminate relevant topics around continuous delivery and what's going on in the space. We really happy to be able to do this and this month's show should be a good one. As I don't know if I mentioned I'm Alan Shimmel, let me introduce you.

First of all to my co-host who is from the CDF Foundation as well as now the cncf. Cloud native Computing Foundation my friend Laurie larouche and and Jay frog I should mention as well. My friend Lori lorusso Lori.

Welcome good to see you. Thank you Alan. We do appreciate this opportunity every month.

And this this episode is a little different which is great because we're going to be talking to end users like Alan said, my name is Laura Larusso. I am the open source program manager for Jay frog and the marketing Outreach chair for the CDF. So this is something that is super cool to be able to do with you and I think this is a it's a great new take on our our show is to talk to the people using the tools that the CDF Works to support.

Excellent. So Lori with that let's let's introduce this. Group of users that we have here today.

I want it first introduce you to Ramin akbari, and Ramin is from Salesforce Ramin Welcome to our show. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on and then joining Ramin this month.

I'm gonna try to do my best Irish broke here Gerard McMahon McMahon and my close. I apologize. You are very close Island.

Yeah, it's well, like all Irish names shortened. So it's Jerry McMahon and delighted to be here. Thanks very much for sure McMahon.

Thank you, and then look continuing the names just got harder as I was going I started with worry our next one is and I'll again I'll try to do it right but he's been on our show before so I've had a little bit of practice at least let me introduce you next to fight T. digimenti close perfect. Thank you.

Okay. Thanks you buddy. All right.

So now that we've got the hard part out of the way. Let's get into our conversation guys and lady. So obviously the CDF will continuous delivery Foundation is all about continuous delivery.

com that there's still a lot of fog a lot of uncertainty in the market around continue with delivery. As a matter of fact, there is some some people who still think of CD is continuous deployment not delivery. And I I'd love to jump into what?

How that came about and where we went off the tracks there, but also just about how important continuous delivery is, you know for many of us. We think of CD only in terms of cicd continuous integration continuous delivery can't have one without the other but I think as devops is matured we've seen that it is possible. To split off CD from CI yet.

There are so many more organizations. It seems that are doing CI. You know organically very well but having quite grasped or mastered.

CD continuous delivery I don't know why but I'd like, you know, these are topics I'd like us to kind of explore here today and and most importantly is Lori mentioned your end users. You're not here pushing. Anybody's tool or service.

We want to hear from you how our audience out here. Can be better at this, how do we tackle these problems? So that that's that's the mission guys and you know, we'd love to hear from you.

Where I mean, you were the first one in my zoom today, so I'm gonna call on you first. Let's first of all knock out this continuous delivery to continuous deployment. Because I don't know how that crept up into the vernacular, but what do you think about that?

Well terms and phrases are and definitions of such. Are usually the probably the toughest thing to get correct in any organization in any language. I don't care where you've worked in which industry you worked things do get.

A modeled up as even for industry experts they have different definitions of things but the term continuous delivery and continuous deployment have been around long enough. Now people people in the know understand the difference and as far as yeah, I've been involved with the CDF for a while now and dealt with enough organizations in my career to give it a really clear definition and that is continuous deployment is really all about Only about the deployment piece you you have to deploy whatever it is. However, it is your packaging your application.

You have to deploy it to an environment. You have to deploy it to somewhere for it to run. Well, that's that's just one function of of continuous delivery.

In fact, it's the the Argo project that really clearly separated the those two functions. They have a product called. Or go CD and that's see the D in that stands for deployment.

And so and they also have another project called Argo workflows, which is it's pure function is all about the orchestration of workflows, which you can use to achieve continuous delivery. And of course you know as much as you and we don't want to Think about continuous integration when it comes to continuous delivery. The two are tied at the hip.

So it's a very common term and rightfully so that people refer to the entire bit of functionality as ci/cd. They really they really are tied together. So that's that's how so continuous deployment is really a part of the entire continuous delivery spectrum and so is continuous integration.

So if you were to draw a triangle or triangle or try to Encompass it it's really continuous integration continuous deployment. And then the overarching thing is can be called continuous delivery. Okay, I went to Jared you.

Do you agree with that? What are your thoughts around that and I think yeah. I think the CI side is very clear.

And I think you know for me as a device maybe as people Fidelity might call me. My fellow Technologies might call me a former developer. Right but as a developer developers hate manual things, right they love and and they love to be creative in in automating things or doing things and better ways each time.

So in the old way developers kind of rotor code tested their code, they built their code and usually put their art to build artifact or the binary whatever it was into some repository and I was the kind of scope of you know, their work right is within the Mind whoever's testing if it was a hand off or for tourists into automation, but I was a clear boundary of what sea ice what CI stood for and kind of developers own and download we talk about Jenkins earlier in the conversation. You could download Jenkins off the internet. You can install it on a machine and you could hook it up to your repository and off you go so was developers were very self-sufficient in in how they did that and then that artifact thing it's carried forward.

Testing phases and other types of you know verification to the quality of it and ultimately ends up in production and I think because there was no clear honor of you know, it's on the right side of the artifact, you know, you had operations might do the production deployment. You would QA or some testers doing the testing bit of it and you could have at other functions if you had centralized performance, for example, they might be involved in the picture. So I think there was no clear definition or clear owner and expand to things so I think people of used Continuous deployment interchangeably with continuous delivery.

You hear people calling or continuous test. That's something in between you got, you know, some people now say, well you deploy your artifact, but you release it at a later point. So there's a whole world of terminologies and tools that might Take part in all 20.

What you do in is taking a binary you're verifying it and you're putting it into the hands to your customer. So I think for me continues delivering encompasses. Getting it into the hands of the customer and there's there can be a very number of continuous acts something or others that you know might sit in between, you know, the CI part and you know, ultimately your customers getting their value.

I I don't necessarily disagree with that. Friday I'm gonna give you a chance to weigh in. Actually our community it's some work around this terms.

Like when these terms were first, you know used who use these terms first time and the history of continuation, as you know goes to 901 and like when you look at things like content irrigation, Appeared first time continuous deployment actually appeared before continuous delivery. So people start using the term continuous deployments before continuously became what it is now and as both Ramin and German, but like we also didn't Foundation consider continuation contains the deployment under continuous delivery area. And again, one of the things we discussed is like continuation is a practice that makes continuously repossible because if you don't have continuous integration place, you can't even start talking about continues delivery and continuous deployment in turn is made possible back on by continuous delivery.

So there are tightly, you know connect to each other they are kind of either create or requirements for other things and yeah confidence really is kind of like these Big Goal like how we can make sure that whatever we are working. It can be released to users as fast as possible in a secure and sustainable. Honor, so I conquered about what year and Ramin mentioned then yeah confusury is the thing.

We put our efforts around by looking at other aspects as well. So I want to jump in because parties said something that I was like really curious to hear from both girl and ramen about and it's the Need for Speed right the need to deliver fast. And I think that that has only increased, you know with the pandemic with the fact that everyone is working remote with the fact that every company is a software company.

So can we speak a little bit? Can you guys speak a little bit about the Need for Speed and delivering fast and why you choose to use the tools that you use to make this happen Salesforce huge company Fidelity huge company. I mean, we're not talking about you know, Mom and Pop shops here.

Sure. I guess I'll I'll take this one to begin with and hand it over to Gerard afterwards. Speed is extremely important of course, but what is even more important so there are certain processes at every company that must happen.

Whether whether fast or not that we we cannot deliver things to our customers and lose their trust or make it big mistake and along the way inadvertently people people don't wake up in the morning ago. I'm gonna make make it make a mistake today. No, the things just do happen and the automation of of all of this is it's actually the most important thing speed is very important.

You try to create processes and run on platforms that are the fastest in the industry for what it is you trying to achieve but what is even more important is the full-on automation of things at which allows you to insert in between those steps that continuous delivery steps things like company security and legal standards most developers including myself. We don't want to have we know those things have to happen. We don't really want to think about them.

but Continuous if you get your continuous delivery implemented design and implementation correctly. The developers don't have to worry about those and the faster those things happen. The easier it is for those developers and even even more important than How fast they happen it's when they happen for example a whole like what developers like to see they like to see a concept called fail fast.

Happen much earlier in the process this whole there's been this. Concept in Industry called Left shifting left shift everything and left being the beginning of the process. So developers would like to know as soon as possible if what they're developing doesn't it here to let's say the company security and or legal standards.

They want to know that very very early in the process. And the first time that they get to do that is either at their developers workstation if we're able to Brunch scanners and things of that sort at the developers workstation then they get to know that before they even check anything into these Source control. So everything starting from the developers workstation all the way till there binary as as your mentioned hits customers eyeballs.

That is the entire thing can be considered as part of the continuous delivery story. So speed important, but when things happen even more important and of course the automation of it all is extremely important. So I want to jump in before go responds because you talked about when things happen and you just released a white paper on the CDF talking about how to track when things happen and events.

So, can you give us a little insight onto this POC that you guys are building out at Fidelity. So sort of track that along the process right? I mean, it's so fascinating to me.

Yeah, Laura. Yes. So we're you know, let's remain said, you know like Larry you said we want speed right and you know, the pandemic has said we've become a digital world, right?

Everything is digital, you know, the pandemic is forced every organization and to be truly digital and Fidelity being no different and as part of that speak to market for business perspective is hugely important, right? So a lot of competitiveness says out there. We're all competing.

But is remained said it's we can't sacrifice quantity security compliance, etc. Etc. For the sake of speed, right it speed has to come and they actually we have to raise the bar of all of those things.

So while we want to be support speed and as fast as humanly possible, we always want we always want to raise the bar of ensuring quality security compliance Etc. So one of the things we're doing in Fidelity is so we've been working with the CDF on their CD events actually where we're starting to make our initial contributions now from our PLC project into the actual formal CD events. I'm open source projects.

So I think the first ones are going up I'm also because you know, we use Jenkins, you know in a kubernetes environment. So we're looking at how do we instrument everything that happens within the software delivery life cycle? So developers, you know, get the gate commit to get push create pure got the code reviews.

You got your marriage request. You got your pipelines and all the things that happened in your pipeline and from a CI perspective and then a CD. So how do we know what people are doing?

And how do we govern and provide a guardrails for allowing them to go as fast as humanly possible but in brings have those guardrails in place, so when something maybe going off course or there's about to be a crash that we can actually, you know, preventatively, you know get in the way and actually stop that from happening. So we're we're creating what's in evidence. I saw for delivery evidence store all database so we can have these mechanisms and planes as things are going on to evaluate.

You know, what is the quality? How does this speed is does the application code and all of their automation is remain talked about is that of high enough standard and meeting the gates and the quality standards. The Fidelity might that feeling does have in place to ensure that when that value does get to our customers our customers, you know can rely on it and they're hugely confident in using it leveraging it.

So And and the last thing I would add to it is, you know were you know, just like open source open source inside an internally in an organization so innersource. We can take advantage of all the brilliant Engineers who may be more mature have had greater opportunity that they can codify their expertise into that Automation and creating those guardrails. So as teams adopt, they're actually jumping three four, five six rungs of a ladder and in the quality sphere so like you know that all saying I'm arising tide, you know raises All Ships.

So we also want to Leverage The expertise of all of the engineers to you know, provide a benefit to others who are coming behind them. to the Need for Speed those speed kills right You can only go fast when you're going short or you know, you you've got to have a high degree of confidence. in what you're doing is is right so you can and that.

We're seeing this play out in the AI thing, right? There's letter. Yes today from a hundred people that we should do a moratorium until we figure out the security and some of the other issues around AI.

It's it's that confidence that allows us to go fast. And I think that's something that's lacking in a lot of organizations. What's stopping them from going faster by adopting automation CD kind of Technology automated CD Technologies is the confidence that in deploying more faster.

It will be better right? That's the third the third leg of that stool better quality. I don't know who wants to it.

Go first on that book ahead. I can I can piggy back in the previous thing data, right so we can all have opinions that what we're doing is great. So one of the things we're doing is you know, how do you build confidence and how do you ensure confidence and again by repeatability?

So, you know one of the techniques we're going to use from the CI and CD is templates so immutable templates. So if we have a qualified best practice method of building and testing and verifying and deploying our software and all of those guardrails are built in and constantly executed by every single team based on their application you build confidence. And as we collected all of the data, we're building, you know a vast quantity of data.

We can then analyze that and we can use that data to determine. Are you drifting left to right? You know, we we have cars now with Lane assist right to help you, you know, you don't want to crash into that side barrier again.

How do we build these Lane assists? So if we are seeing something or we do identify something we can you know interject into that process and protect that application from actually having a crash because we can actually stop it but make it all data driven and so everybody and then we can use that data constantly analyze it and behind the scenes and then you know, that's where we build the confidence but if the same pipeline he's been executed by every application hundreds or thousands of times that's and there's no accidents then, you know, you start building confidence into that process and that other teams then can adopt that with confidence. Anybody else on the panel have any thoughts on that?

I think that was very well and eloquently stated and I completely agree the the is setting up setting up processes the automated processes as part of your pipeline. For delivery deployment integration and and you know security and sticking to legal requirements being extremely important to the business and to the organizations. You really can't do that until you automate and you?

Inject those into your into your pipeline and as Gerard was just mentioning. How do you know? If you how do you know if you have the correct things in place and you're doing the right things?

if you're not collecting and Gathering the data and and the work that the CDF is doing with contributions from from Gerard's or with events is extremely important to be able to know to be able to gather the information at the right time collate it and feed it back into the system this it's that and part of the continuous part really does come down to feeding in all of the data back in so you can learn from it. part of part of the whole concept of extreme programming is that you are learning you're doing little by little and your taking your learnings and applying it back to your your process again, and that's exactly what this what this does. Here, so I wanted I'm sorry, but I wanted to ask about the White House and their new cybersecurity plan or statement and because you talked about open source, and of course CDF loves open source of vendor neutrality and we love that companies like Fidelity and Salesforce are using our projects and using open source software to build upon their own.

But now the government the White House has said that they're going to put greater responsibility on software companies. So where does this fit in your in your pipeline as it were when it comes to delivery right? Because now they're taking the pressure off of the maintainers and putting it on the corporations that are using this software.

Does that change anything that you're doing or is this something that you've already like built into your point of action and you're like, thank you White House for finally like stating what we've already been doing for years. I'd say it's the latter we've been you know, we didn't have to wait for any government agencies in all the companies that I worked for including Salesforce. We don't wait for any government agency to come along and and validate or or you know backup what we're doing we have to do that.

There are legal requirements socks compliance is is a big one every company has to comply to that and so yeah it we've already been doing those and the apps and as I said it before the absolute best place to put those checks and guardrails and play in place is in a in an automated way and the best automation that The automation story that we've been able to come up with all of these years ever since I've been doing a software engineering. Is the continuous delivery story that's and the mechanisms that go along with it. So yeah, we've been we've been doing that but it's a good thing though that the government is catching up I'd say they are catching up to us.

They're not really leading us there were, you know, we're the ones leading the industry and they're catching up to the idea that this is where this is how it has to happen and where it has to So I probably have some different views on that. Right. So coming from 20 years in security.

I mean But funny you mentioned the Sox compliance. That's government too. Right so that there's two big sticks in this world.

There's three big sticks. The government regulations and they they can impose regulations quite frankly in the US probably the EU has been more out in front of some root security and privacy regulations. Then this industry-wide initiatives the PCI for the payment card Industries a great example where hey we're gonna police ourselves government so you don't have to get involved here because you guys tend to have a heavier hand right?

And so you have industry-wide but then there's the ultimate judge and the ultimate enforcer and that's the market. Right, you do shoddy stuff and you have big breaches. the market punishes you or at least we like to think that anyway, right and and ultimately that's the big stick right is is the market and You know, so I also I applaud the White House cybersecurity regulations.

You know, but oftentimes to me government regulations are least common denominator. It's it's the low bar not the high bar. And when you're at a company like a Salesforce or like a Fidelity you don't shoot for the low bar.

You ain't for the high bar, right because it's it's about the market perception. And so I think that's an important thing to remember when we when we look at regulation, but Laurie mentioned something else and that's open source. right All of us have been in this industry a long time open source wasn't always.

it wasn't always looked upon his favorably let's say as it is now right where it's become so dominant and and Friday I'd like you to lead us on this because you're from the Linux Foundation, right? Let's talk about the role of Open Source in this new world of continuous everything right and and Regulation and and going faster with better quality. I don't think we could do it without the open source model that we see like in Linux Foundation stuff, but fighting you probably know more than me.

What do you say? I think like open source again, you know, when all these supply chain security discussions happen different numbers are thrown out like the 80 90 percent of all software is open source regardless of industry or products and so on I think open source. Yes, many people say open sources inherently insecure and so on but I think open source.

Is pretty like secure that comes to what the communities are doing and how the community is actually getting contributions from you know, others who might want to become part of different projects. Like you can't just go and you know inject some malicious called there and you know get those things go through, you know, get their posteries. See I see the pipelines and hit the Angels organizations as dependency because open source helps its own practices and it has own no way of doing things like you need to be credible and reputable to make sure that your contributions your ideas are actually accepted by the community and it takes a while for you to know go there actually Make an impact from you know, disperspective and I think like when it comes to organizations who are using open source Technologies to build their own products or bring new service to know their users one of the important things.

Is that like Me all have been talking about shifting left all these things. And if we think this the entire production systems or software developments life cycle. Now, those things actually start in our side of organizations, they start further left.

So when we talk about shift left, it's not actually on s******* black left within the organizations that what it actually goes up to Upstream quantities and because of this I think the organizations such as sales or something that what they are doing and actually gifting Upstream their focus and getting their contributions direct Ops in communities rather than doing them in-house. It's pretty critical because it's not just about bringing new features, but actually improve the security of the open source technology striking Source again, I can't mix many things here. But what matters see is actually yes, we call this episode and users and we talk about angels this I think it's pretty important for our users to become part of the community and become contributors become maintainers.

Become part of the community and take leadership positions there so they can actually bring their learnings bring their challenges and make them part of the Comet way of working and get those things fixed in their source. Improved open source for everyone and becoming a good role model for others as well. I don't.

Care Jeff Hardy Lori any any thoughts on that? Yeah, I did go what fatiza there and you know you think of it, right? So Fidelity maybe has 17,000 technologists.

Right? We have an X percent of that organization would be Security Experts or application security. How many millions of technologists are in developers are they're out in the world and you know, you're learning and again they're yes, there are Bad actors and tread actors who who content continuously look to explores and organizations across, you know across them all Industries, whether it be true open source or SMS or fishing campaigns Etc, but when you have industry and you've organizations say like Jay frogs, you got to get up the world and they're constantly scanning and our Security Experts in the world continuously monitoring and continuously looking for you know, where those exponents are and that's part of the open source community and you know their responding in you know with the world and the community, you know.

Under their heart so, you know ensuring that we're all you know, protected and safe. So I I think really the open source Community is what's guarding and protecting us all who are the consumers of that and when we can continuously learn and benefit from that and as fatigue said The more organizations like ourselves and you know Salesforce Etc as we partake in that Community, you know, we we become better, right? So we learn, you know, we learn from those experts and we're able to take advantage of that and just like in my in our own site where we're using ourselves to help ourselves again we go here and we learn a lot quicker and we get a lot more benefit and value which ultimately leads us to be more secure.

So I I think there was a time where open source was considered more secure than closed sources because the idea was there was all of these eyes on the source code anyone could look at the source code we seem to have gotten away from that somewhere but I think with things like the CDF we've come back to it where we do have working groups where we do have co-opetition among vendors. So you can have you know, multiple vendors working together for a common good along with end user organizations like a Salesforce and a Fidelity and under the guise of this whole Linux Foundation. Right?

And so we have the the capability in there. To make sure that our open source is more secure. On the other hand.

Look I've been in security 20 25 years. It does my art good to see security becoming such an important piece of this right from the White House on down. We're all you know thinking about security and and it's become like a primary a primary driver but you know back to the three-legged school.

It's it's speed. It's Quality Security. I guess is now become another one of those another one of those.

Lori if you don't mind I'd like you to maybe talk a little bit about some of the different. working groups right within CDF that are looking at all of the kind of stuff. We've been talking about here.

So I think like to Echo what we've heard is that corporations are just you know, using open source, they're contributing, right? So as girls saying like they're they're working actively with CD events, which is one of the new projects out of the CDF. So there's like nine projects in the CDF.

But additionally we have cigs like the software supply chain sink, which is working on this issue. Right and it's not alone. It's not a standalone Sig there are other working groups and they're trying to work with other groups and other organizations to solve the same issues supply chain security.

How do we how do we make sure our supply chain is secure we also have reference architecture Sig. So they're trying to help organizations find the best practice to set up your pipelines or or how do you scale and and things like that so within the CDF there are projects and then there are working groups that are working on these problems together to solve to solve the challenge of continuous delivery and I think One of the things that's really cool. And I know that I'm the one that opened the government worm here is that it again, it's not just corporations using open source, there's departments with incorporations.

Like like me that work in open source as our job. Like we're getting paid by a company to work in a vendor neutral Manner and I think that's what makes things like the CDF so important to the tech ecosphere in general is that they're they're Salesforce Fidelity Jay frog, you know, like name it there's all these corporations that are coming together under a vendor neutral flag to solve the problems that the products that they then make for their customers can be secure and work fast and our automated and do all of the things that the customer wants but we're all working together to make that happen. And so I think that's one of the values the hidden values and open source, not so much hidden, maybe people don't realize that there are organizations that have Department.

That work completely in open source projects, but I think that's the value of it. So that Fidelity can create a POC and put it into action using City events using other like Jenkins other open source vendor neutral tools that come out of a foundation support. So I think you know one of the best ways to find out what's actually happening within the CDF is like to join our slack Channel check out all the individual groups that are happening start a conversation.

You never know who has the same sort of problem or who found a solution for a problem that you have and it all comes back to just community. So I know I didn't really answer your questions so much just kind of talked around it. But I think that's the value of the CDF and having a news like a slack Channel where you can just sort of just pop in a question and then have somebody direct you to a working group that might be working on that problem.

Absolutely. I think I was good overview. Look, we only have a few minutes left and I got to do a little.

Little promo stuff here. So bear with me and bear with you out there Lori the Linux Foundation event out in Vancouver in May. If you wouldn't mind giving us a little 411 on that.

So I thank you for this because this is going to be like the best cdcon ever and I happen to be working with the program committee. I will tell you that these individuals have worked really hard to create some of the best content that you are going to see in the continuous delivery space. It's two days.

It's May 8th and Ninth in Vancouver. It's paired with the open source Summit and get upscon so you can stay for the week and get a full week of learning girls actually gonna be there. He'll be talking on an end user panel, which is cool fat you will be there.

It is by far some of the heaviest hitting continuous delivery information that you're gonna find in one of like the best community atmospheres. And from what I've been told Vancouver is a pretty cool place to go. So I would type in there.

Yes, bloody bloody Caesars instead of Bloody Mary check them out, but you know what? It's gonna be great. Actually Tech strong TV will be There I don't know if we're streaming live or just recording interviews.

I think it depends on the internet access but Mike Resort our chief content officer and our team will be out there covering that during the week. And before cdcon and that April 15th over in Amsterdam. right Lori want to tell us about kubecon.

So kind of content. I do have a little bit of double duty here. So yes, the ncf is hosting cubecon out in Amsterdam April 18th through the 20th, I think and then they have co-located events that are happening sooner than that.

So that's super cool. I think the main thing to get out of both of these is working in the continuous delivery Cloud native space. It's sort of a you know, CDF was born out of CD cncf.

So it's a it's a really cool overlap. And so if you happen to be in Europe, maybe check us out in Amsterdam, but if you are on want to travel to Vancouver, which we hope that you do cdcon is the place to go in May. Absolutely, and I I just feel obligated that in between those two if you have nothing else to do so the the week after.

Kubecon and the week before Vancouver. We will be in San Francisco at RSA where we put on the devsecops event. I think Jay frog is participating and we'll be streaming live from there all week and Delving into a lot of devsecups actually the theme of our devsecops event at Moscone south this year is devops is devsecops.

So it if you're out at RSA join us, like if you look online you can get free Expo passes. That'll get you in there anyway. Jer Rami and and fatty stepping in here for us.

I want to thank all three of you for joining Lori and I on today's CD pipeline show and forget that thank all of both of you all three of you actually for all you do around the CD foundation and the Linux Foundation. It's not every company that like Lori said that can actually afford to pay people to be involved in these foundations. So a lot of it happens on your own time, and and we all appreciate what you guys do around that.

So thank you very much Lori want to take the last word? Again, thank you to Tech strong TV for hosting the CD pipeline. foundation.

We look forward to the next episode and again Alan. It's always great to see you. So, thank you everyone for joining.

Alrighty until next time. Thank you. Thank you everyone, bye-bye.