5G Factor: Signs of 5G Turnaround?, Episode 61

Hello and welcome everyone to the 5G Factor. I'm Ron Westfall, research director here at the Futurum Group, and I'm joined here today by my distinguished colleague, Olivia A. Blanchard, our research director, focused on key areas such as devices and semiconductors, including 5G Naturally today we'll be focusing on the major 5G ecosystem developments that have caught our eye, and that will include surprise, surprise indications that maybe the 5G market is due for a bit of a rebound during the course of 2024.

And naturally we'll dive into why that can be. And so, Olivier, welcome back again to the 5G Factor, and many thanks for joining today. I'm sure appreciative that you made it back from New York City earlier this week.

And beyond that, or in addition to that, how have you been bearing up? You know, it's, uh, flying around in the US is always an experience, and so I'm, I'm lucky to be here not because of, you know, any, uh, particular airline or, or aircraft manufacturers, uh, engineering and maintenance woes, but just, you know, the, the state of air travel when there's weather. Um, yes, Yes.

So, so I'm happy to be home's before The weekend. It's a constant wild card. Yeah.

Uh, yeah, it's a little background there. There were tremendous, uh, April storms that caused the delay, but you got out in time before the earthquake hit the New York, New Jersey, and general region. So I missed the earthquake.

I, I, I'm apparently gonna be missing the, um, the solar eclipse, but, you know, I got the rain, so, you know, one out of three and about Right on. Well, if it's any constellation, I'll be missing eclipse too, because I will be out west on, uh, Monday. So it, it all kind of, uh, balances out somewhat.

But, uh, you know, I think we've all seen the solar eclipse before, so I think, you know, we'll definitely be able to soldier on. And with that in mind, let's dive right in because I think it's important to look naturally take a snapshot of the state of the five GE ecosystem. And that includes, you know, the economic, uh, situation and also other key data points such as subscriber counts and so forth.

And, you know, we see the mobile industry increasingly moving to 5G standalone. Let's start there. And 5G advanced standards that are going to basically unlock more 5G innovation and as a result, uh, hopefully stimulate more diversified revenue streams, but also make real the 5G use cases we've been hearing about for a while.

And actually we'll touch on that. And I think it's interesting that as of, uh, January of this year, 47 operators are now offering commercial 5G services as 5G standalone offerings, or basically they're on a standalone network now. And so that is about more than half of operators who are expecting to deploy 5G advance within a year after the standards are released.

So these are two, you know, moving targets that are both important and both interrelated. You have 5G standalone already making tangible progress. And, you know, hold on.

There's also 5G advance down the pike. And so that's, I think, uh, encouraging that we can see that the operators are ready to pull the trigger in 5G advance once there's that consensus. And, but that's gonna take a little more time to become more tangible in terms of it being part of a commercial offering.

Now, with that in mind, by 2025, you know, next year, 5G networks are likely to cover one third of the world's population. So that I think is important to, uh, bear in mind, plus the impact of the mobile industry and its customers will be significant. 2 billion connections by 2025, aligning with that one third, uh, of the world's population, uh, stat.

And so in addition to that, I think it's something, uh, that we, uh, need to touch on is that the number of eem consumer devices launched is growing significantly, and it has certainly done so over the last five years. And that is that the number of commercial eim services is also on, on the rise as a result. Now, this is setting the foundation for EIM adoption to gather pace over the rest of this decade, let alone this, the rest of this year, next year.

In fact, when you, we look at GSMA intelligence's baseline scenario predicting around 1 billion eim smartphone connections globally by the end of 2025. 9 billion by 2030. Now, this would account for around three quarters of the total number of smartphone connections by 2030.

And North America will be the region with the fastest growth of EIM adoption due to apple's launch, uh, of eim only smartphones here in the us, uh, back in September of 2022. And I think, uh, it's important to, uh, reflect that SEM just gives, uh, smartphone OEMs and, you know, smartphone consumers and users and certainly smartphone, uh, businesses or businesses that use smartphones as part of their overall hybrid workforce, simply more flexibility in how they can connect to service and so forth. And I think, uh, that is something that we'll just basically be taking for granted long gone will be the days of having to physically take a SIM out of a, a smartphone and then reinstalling another SIM to get, you know, connectivity in say, another region of the world.

And I'm providing, I'm providing this, uh, as background because as we've addressed over the last few 5G factors that AI and gen AI has certainly been a major contributor to a rising tide, and it's certainly impacting the mobile ecosystem and the telco space, but it's gonna take more than that. And that is the reason why I'm looking at these additional factors. And so that's leading to our thesis of is 5G headed for a turnaround by the end of 2024.

And exhibit one is Samsung indicating that it's gonna have a robust fiscal Q1, 2024, which will be officially announced later in, uh, April of, of, uh, 2024. Now, as we saw, Samsung Electronics had a dismal 2023, and that was marred by waning interest in consumer electronics. And, uh, we've discussed this before that, you know, clearly the pandemic had caused a surge, uh, that was out of, uh, what you can say, a normal demand cycle, uh, cycle that is, uh, a demand supply cycle.

That is, uh, the numbers went up dramatically because people were basically quarantined, had to stay from, uh, their home and so forth. But, uh, we don't need to dwell on that too much. 6 trillion Korean wine.

9 billion in this, uh, Q1 of 2024, up from $473 million just a year earlier. And that is roughly a tenfold increase in year over year, um, uh, financial, uh, outcome. 9 billion.

And so this is all showing that Samsung's highest operating profit since the third quarter of 2022 is a indicator that yes, 5G will be benefiting from, you know, uh, players like Samsung, basically staging a massive rebound. And, uh, so I think it's also important to note that chip prices in general have been rising over the last couple quarters. Plus, uh, I know we've touched on the fact that AI has been a major factor in NVIDIA's, you know, juggernauts, uh, performance in terms of financial, but also I think, uh, super micro is certainly another exhibit as to, you know, why, you know, stocks related to, uh, ai, uh, technology.

Uh, certainly the primary players in it have be definitely benefited. And Samsung I think, is be definitely in place for that because again, it's the number one memory supplier on, uh, on a global bla basis. And it's certainly playing a role in providing memory for naturally AI workloads.

87 billion to create a new semiconductor packaging plant in, uh, r and d center in Indiana. And that is to, of course, capitalize on the growing US demand for chips, but also aligning with, you know, the recent, uh, investments that, uh, the federal government is, uh, supporting such as the CHIPS Act. So I'll stop right there and say, Hey, Olivia, what is your perspective on, say, Samsung's res, uh, surging financial picture, as well as what's going on with chips and so forth?

Yeah, so broadly, um, you're right, two thou, 2003, at least h one of 2003 was kind of like the tail end of, uh, of the slump, right? Um, yes. Again, not, not to get too deep into it, but, uh, yes, the, the, the Covid Pandemic created a, a purchasing surge.

Uh, and at the same time, uh, sort of, you know, created some, uh, some supply chain issues for a lot of reasons. People were not, people were staying home, uh, ships weren't necessarily, uh, carrying as much, uh, as much inventory as possible. And a lot of companies, uh, essentially overbought, they, they bought every, every chip and every system and component that they could.

And so we ended up with bloated inventories that took a really long time to burn off. And so it isn't that, um, consumers, and even on the enterprise side, users of technology didn't, didn't, there wasn't demand for, for technology, it's just things had already been bought. So we had to essentially just kinda like burn through those inventories before demand could, uh, ramp up production again.

And so we had this, uh, this huge slump, unfortunately, uh, especially, uh, it, it hit the, the mobile market, but it hit the PC market even harder. And, uh, and we saw this quarter after quarter after quarter, just really disappointing results. Um, and we, we started seeing some signs of normalization around the end of H 1 20 23, uh, and then by the beginning of this year, uh, we could, we could start to see like, we're not completely out of the woods yet, but we could start to see a return to growth.

Um, there were definitely some indicators with PCOM specifically, I think with mobile OEMs that started before that. And, um, the rebound has been a little bit faster. And so, yeah.

And, and Samsung, just on the foundry side, just wanna remind everybody that, you know, TSMC has the number one position globally with, uh, the biggest market share. I think they're at 61, close to 62%, uh, of the, uh, the Global Foundry business. And Samsung is number two with somewhere between, they hover between 10 and 12, I think they're like at 11 and a half right now or something.

Um, so Samsung is a huge player in, uh, in the semiconductor business. And so for them to, uh, suggest that, uh, that business is up again, the demand is up, production is up, and especially profitability is good, that's a whole other issue. Um, but that's good.

It, it just basically falls in line with what we're seeing for the rest of the, uh, for the rest of the market. On, on the, um, on the profitability of Samsung's business. I mean, obviously everybody in the last two years, three years even, um, showed extreme discipline because there was no growth.

Companies turned inward and basically said, okay, where can we become more efficient? It wasn't so much a question of where can we cut costs, but where can we trim fat, where can be, we'd be more efficient with our processes? Um, and so what we're seeing coming out of this slump is the, um, the, the benefits of, of this fiscal, uh, discipline, uh, perpetuated or basically carrying on into this period of growth, which means, uh, higher, uh, higher profitability, uh, for, you know, for services.

That's kind of a given, but also for, for hardware as well. And I'd also add that because of ai, uh, against your point, AI is basically driving everything. And, uh, I think it's for, for chip makers whose solutions work well with ai, whether they have an AI component to it, or they just work as a, a great compliment to AI solutions.

For instance, memory, um, we'll talk about like Samsung real quick, but Micron, for instance, yes, uh, isn't necessarily the company you would associate with ai, but because memory is so important to AI processes, having the right memory attached to an SOC that has an NPU or, or, or some kind of other, uh, powerful AI forward process is gonna be really useful. And so it's for chip makers, AI has created a market that is essentially a, a seller's market, uh, for the silicon vendors as opposed to buyer's market everywhere else. And Nvidia has a, a captive audience and could probably charge anything they want for some of their GPUs, and it feels like they are.

Um, so I think that we're, we're gonna start to see prices drop as more entries into the market, uh, create more competition for Nvidia. But, uh, but right now, yeah, profitability is, uh, uh, looks really strong and, uh, the semiconductor market, and that's, that's kind of the compounded reason why all those elements kind of conspiring to, to create the perfect storm of profitability and growth. Yes, and uh, I think you brought out some very important distinctions.

This is not across the board. There is still, you know, a lot of struggle out there. And, uh, so the good news is that ai, gen ai, uh, specifically is, you know, generating a rising tide that impacts many sectors.

And telecom is, you know, one of them. And what we're hoping to link that to is that are there specific mobile ecosystem and 5G drivers that can also, you know, create a resurgence? And as we know that part of the unevenness is that, uh, the many of the top tier operators have dialed back their CapEx.

We know that that's impacted many of these suppliers and to the point where you have smaller, uh, suppliers such as case systems, unfortunately filing for bankruptcy, but also some key players such as, uh, dish, uh, CommScope and Lumen, you know, looking at some, you know, uh, notable challenges, uh, during the course of 2024. And so now we're looking at, you know, Ray of, you know, uh, light if you will, in terms of, you know, why is it that okay, we're getting through, uh, the darkest part of the forest and that the mobile ecosystem, 5G in particular, can benefit in addition to AI being a broad driver, but also, you know, some specifics. And that will lead into my next, uh, uh, reason for, you know, what is it on that's on the horizon that can indicate five G's prospects will improve.

And that is, uh, because FCC chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel moved to relaunch a program that was originally adopted in 2020. And now that the commission is looking at to basically, you know, um, use to map, uh, 5G areas that I believe won't receive service without subsidization. And so that specifically is the 5G fund, uh, no relation to the human fund.

And with the, uh, revival of the 5G Fund, what we're looking at is that if enacted the proposed rules would revive the 5G fund for rural America allocating up to $9 billion for its initial phase. So, you know, $9 billion can be a difference maker regardless of any industry. And certainly this is good news for the telecom industry, at least in the us assuming you know that this is all implemented with without too much delay, but at least you know, the, uh, discussion is stimulating that, let's, uh, revive it and let's move it forward.

Now, funding sources for the program typically come from a combination of government appropriations revenue generated from, you know, spectrum licensing options and contributions from the telcos themselves who are participating in the program. Also, in addition to allocating $9 billion to extend 5G mobile broadband services as well as voice to rural areas or any challenged area is the relaunched 5G fund incorporates incentives of up to $900 million to encourage the adoption of open ran access network or open ran technology, which can ultimately help with competition, help with, you know, priorities that are related to domestic employment and so forth. Forth, as we know that yes, 5G overall has had some challenges.

The open ran market in particular has had some specific challenges where there's still debate as to whether or not, you know, a telco such as at and t's deploy something as genuinely open ran. I say that it's, uh, in the eye of the beholder, basically the operator is going to declare what it is that they, uh, understand as open ran, and that could drive, you know, investment in the area specifically. But I think it, there's pretty broad consensus that Open RAN is behind expectations and that as a result, it's having its own specific set of challenges.

And we already touched on, you know, the Dish Network being a factor because they basically had committed to deploying on an open ran only network. And so we, we could see there are just challenges in making open ran more mainstream despite the backing of government organizations and despite the backing of top tier telcos who like the idea of it. Now, in addition to this, uh, uh, there was an ex parte communication that the CTIA is, uh, had already filed.

And it's emphasizing that the value of scheduling the 5G fund auction after funnel funding decisions are made and the broadband access equity and deployment program were simply known as bead. Now, this approach would allow the SEC to incorporate crucial deployment information that could influence the scope of the 5G fund. So the upshot here is that bead funding is already in place, and it's a primarily at fiber deployments.

Now, what we need to do is revisit where are the fiber deployments actually, uh, addressing gaps, particularly when it comes to the digital divide, where then can 5G then be optimized in terms of the, uh, deployments that are funded, uh, by government? The potential comeback of the 5G fund, which has no relation to the human fund by the way, and what the development is, is that FCC chairwoman Jessica RW move to relaunch a program that was originally adopted in 2020. Now that the commission has better mapping to get 5G to areas, I believe won't receive the service without subsidization.

Now if enacted the proposed rules would revive the 5G fund for rural America, and that would allocate up to $9 billion for its initial phase. And so that's big money. It doesn't matter what industry you're in, $9 billion is going to drive again, the investment and also the prioritization from the mobile ecosystem.

Now, funding sources for the program typically come from a combination of government appropriations revenue generated from spectrum license auctions, and contributions from the telco companies who participate in the program. Now, in addition to allocating $9 billion to extend voice and 5G mobile broadband services to the rural areas, the relaunched 5G fund incorporates incentives of up to $900 million to encourage the adoption of open ran technology, which can ultimately benefit competition and also diversify supply chain and so forth. Now, we know that 5G has gone through a challenging phase, but open RAN in particular has not fulfilled some of its initial expectations.

And so this would certainly be good news for what can be characterized as the beleaguered open RAN segment. And yes, there are ongoing debates, uh, debates about what is actually open ran. Ultimately it's in the eye of the operator.

And as we result, the at and t Ericsson partnership open RAN is going to proceed, but it'll be at a more cautious, uh, pace, if you will. Now, in addition to that, there's an ex parte communication from the CTIA, which is emphasizing the value of scheduling the 5G fund options after final funding decisions are made with the bead program, also broadband access, equity and deployment. Now, this would allow the SEC to incorporate crucial deployment information that can influence the scope of the 5G fund.

And the reason is, I think this is, uh, stemming from lessons learned with some of the bidding with the bead program. Some of the successful bids were unable to fulfill the requirements, and as a result, they simply fell through. And so naturally what we're looking to do here is to, uh, avoid that altogether, at least minimize that type of scenario.

Now, while bead funding not, uh, is not directly, um, going, uh, to mobile broadband deployment, it can result in the deployment of fiber broadband, backhaul facilities, and fixed wireless services that can aid the deployment and expansion of 5G coverage in rural areas. And I think that's important to also, you know, recognize that 5G fixed wireless access as well as fiber backhaul are gonna be integral to this. And as we know, any new 5G deployment, it will be using fi uh, fiber backhaul because of the economic benefits that are built in with using, it doesn't matter if it's f uh, 5G FWA or small cells or edge deployments, whatever the scenario is, fiber will be the backhaul choice.

In addition, the rural wireless association is engaged in multiple discussions with FCC officials expect expressing concerns of a reverse auction model. We kind of addressed that already, but I think it's important that you know that the funds be distributed on an equitable basis. So there can be avoiding, say, overbidding scenarios that would then take everybody back to the drawing board.

And so with that, uh, Olivier, from your perspective, is the 5G fund good news or is it, you know, basically, uh, a shaira or, you know, what are some other factors you're seeing that are influencing closing the digital divide and getting more 5G out to the rural areas? Right. No, the, the 5G fund is great.

It's, it's not a canard. Uh, so no, it's, it's great. You know, we, we have a, a huge, uh, amount of landmass in this country.

We have over 300 million people. Uh, 5G deployments are costly. It takes time and, and, you know, how are you feel about capitalism versus socialism, which I don't, coming from France, I think of capitalism and socialism sort of working together.

I think that the, the government has a role to play, um, without picking and choosing winners, right? I mean, obviously that would be, uh, that would be not a, a positive thing. But, um, I think with the amount of, of taxes that we pay and, and, you know, looking at the common good, the government has a role to play, whether it's it's local, municipal, county, state, federal, um, infrastructure is part of the government's responsibility in terms of planning, in terms of facilitating and accelerating investments, um, whether it's rail or electricity or roads.

And, you know, broadband is part of that now. Um, it may not have been so at the time of the forefathers, um, but it is nowadays, and I think, um, any, any effort, whether it's privates, nonprofits or governments to expand, accelerate, uh, and facilitate broadband, um, investments and, and adoption and deployments, especially in underserved markets. So obviously rural areas, but also different parts of the country, um, that might not be technically rural, but that may have been, uh, sort of, you know, put on the back burner because other areas got prioritized.

I think that's, that's really good. Um, we're seeing something a little bit similar in the EV market with electrification, right? Right.

So we had the, the first wave of, of electrification in the, uh, in the early 20th century. Um, and now we're seeing a resurgence of that, uh, that's being led by the, the transition to, uh, to EVs. And so all of that to me works kind of in the same way.

Uh, and I'm, we're already seeing the benefits of that for end users on the EV side and, and the electrification side. Um, and also commercially, so services, service providers, um, vehicle OEMs. And so there's a parallel to be found here where the more broadband you have, the better it is.

Uh, the more you have service providers being able to move in and, and serve those areas, the more likely it is that consumers and businesses will buy new devices, uh, that are optimized for 5G. Uh, and so the, the entire thing is, is not so much a, a question of spend. I think it's an investment.

Uh, it's an investment in education, it's an investment in jobs, it's an investment in, uh, the economy. Uh, I don't know what the figure is, but I'm assuming that, uh, for every billion that's invested in 5G deployments in, uh, in underserved areas, we will see a multiple fold positive impact in, uh, economic growth, uh, for those areas. So anyway, long, long way to say yes, it's a good thing, it's a positive thing.

Well, yeah, I think we're on the same page as this, you know, hopefully there won't be too many protracted delays. Yeah, the, there could be some, you know, hopefully, uh, minimal delays. But I, I think these are excellent points.

I think we're seeing increased synergies between the telecommunication sector and the transportation sector and the energy sector. And I think this is something that we're going to quite simply see more of. And it also, uh, relates to the fact that when it comes to addressing gaps, you're right, it's not necessarily all rural, but you know, it's primarily rural, is that, let's optimize it.

Okay, if we know fiber can address, you know, this neighborhood, then let's see where it can make sense to optimize a 5G deployment, for example, in terms of architecting the backhaul capabilities and so forth. So this, yeah, this is constantly evolving. It's dynamic, but it's good to see that there's this cross modal, if you will, planning that is also being kicked in.

And I think that's gonna help the 5G fund and related funds in terms of, uh, success. And this is another indicator that yes, you know, more good news for 5G on the horizon. And related to that, and our, for our third and final segment is, uh, what about the, uh, telco operators and how they can capitalize on this and perhaps that come up with more creative bundles.

And we just saw that T-Mobile is now giving people more encouragement to make the move to 5G internet itself. Uh, as of now, the customers can switch to 5G home internet or small bus business internet as T-Mobile markets it and get a free blink smart home package. And that includes the Blink outdoor four two camera system and Blink pan tilt camera, which is a $229 and 97 cent value.

And yes, it is for a limited time, but it's actually, I think, pretty cool bundling because it's going to be free if you decide to onboard with T-Mobile's 5G home internet. And moving, as most of us know, can be stressful. I think, uh, virtually all of us have been through it.

And, you know, uh, it can also mean, you know, gaps in, uh, internet coverage as a result. And this is tied into what we're talking about with the 5G Fund. And so what I think is a key selling point about this solution is that it has a simple setup.

People can go from unboxing it to browsing and then about 15 minutes or less. And so it doesn't require any truck rolls or professional installation or wasting hours and an appointment window and so forth, things that all of us, you know, just look at with dread. And so I think this is a, an encouraging way for, you know, folks to, you know, basically realize that 5G can have many benefits that are for situational, um, uh, applications or for, you know, smart stadiums and, you know, smart construction sites and so on.

And, uh, with that Olivier, what are you seeing in terms of, you know, things that are creative, uh, or innovative in terms of, you know, making 5G more attractive, uh, for quite simply monetization? Yeah, so not, unfortunately, not as much creativity as I'd like to see. Um, for, for a, a technology that's, you know, as transformative as 5G has been.

Um, I guess, you know, one of the, the weird paradoxes of of 5G is that, um, initially, you know, even Apple sort of fought back against it, said, ah, we don't need 5G, right? Um, which is kind of funny to think about now, but, um, there was a a a point early on in, in the, the, the introduction of 5G, where 5G had to kind of like pitch itself, like se sell itself to people. 'cause everybody was like, you know, LT is fine, you know, I don't need this, it, everything's great.

And then now with streaming and videos and everything else, obviously 5G is, uh, is, is sort of becoming the, the normal, uh, standard. Uh, and so kudos to 5G for having sort of slipped into our dms in a way, um, and, and become sort of like the normal expectation of performance. And I'm not even talking about millimeter wave, just like sub six is fine.

Um, and so I think because it's not as big of a deal, consumers mainly have transitioned to 5G or they don't necessarily know when they're going from LT to 5G and back and forth. Uh, and so there's, there's not really, I don't feel that there's really a push, a noticeable push for people to do anything. And so, um, it's just sort of there, it's connectivity.

You have slow wifi, fast wifi, slow broadband, fast broadband. It's part of, of moving around and, and existing. So, um, I don't know.

I, I think that selling or at least bundling cameras instead of bundling phones or something else is smart because it ties, it, it ties the service to the home, right? Your cameras are gonna be at the home or at your small business. So automatically it just, even mentally, it just, it creates this sort of mental ecosystem of, okay, it's connectivity here and here's something that's, that helps me keep an eye on this and that, you know, gives this data.

Um, I think the one thing I'd like to see, especially with AI forward PCs hitting the market this year, is a little bit more focus, um, on, uh, on enabling and just making it really easy for people to get, um, like 5G PCs essentially just to kind of like get the category out there. We have the ability, we can put modems like LTE and 5G modems and laptops so that we don't have to ever use wifi if we don't want to. And it's still really difficult to enable this because the, the plans are weird.

Sometimes they're not available, they might be expensive. Um, the carriers I don't think have, have done as much to try to get that off the ground as they could. Uh, so the cameras are nice, but I'd like to see bundling with other devices, um, and the PC still being such a core central piece of what we do.

And aside from phones being sort of a really good transition between business, uh, education and home, um, it's time. If, if anyone is listening, just make it, make it easy, make it painless, and, uh, and make the, uh, the 5G PC category what it should be. Take, take the paint away carriers, give the people what they want, it'll be worth it anyway.

Yeah, the cameras are a good start. Yes, Less pain and more gain. Amen.

And yes. Now those are, uh, my thoughts as well in terms of, you know, how else can operators stimulate, you know, uh, 5G uptake and certainly 5G connected devices, 5G connected laptops specifically are going to be essential because of what you pointed out. You know, wifi security lapses, what a fi WiFi's not available, being dependent on another third party for overall connectivity when it comes to distributed workforces, you know, major organizations, enterprises, government agencies, whatever the case is, they're going to really need to adopt 5G connected devices to avoid those, you know, nightmare security breach scenarios.

It could be ransomware, it could be, you know, a vicious malware wherever the case is. So, you know, buy that insurance, have that peace of mind. And yes, so I think that is a, another piece of that puzzle of, you know, why 5G is due for a, a comeback, a rebound in 2024.

So these are excellent points. And yes, things like fixed wireless access are definitely contributing to that. That's been one, you know, clear success story that's unique to 5G, but I think we're gonna anticipate more of that.

That's also good to see any creative bundling that we haven't really seen before coming out in terms of 5G. And certainly I think we touched on a couple of key ones. And T-Mobile is basically, you know, coming, uh, too, uh, the forefront in this, uh, key regard.

And so with that, again, thank you so much Olivier for hopping on after your New York City travel travails and providing excellent insight on what's going on in the mobile ecosystem and 5G Well, thank you. It's, it's good to be back and uh, to close out my week with, uh, the 5G factor. Alright, uh, on a, uh, up note.

And so with that, again, thank you everyone and our viewing audience for joining again, always, uh, keep us in mind in terms of bookmarking and reserving our, uh, podcasts when they come out. And, uh, with that, uh, thank you everyone and have a great secure 5G Day.