Navigating the Java Ecosystem and Beyond with Kito Mann – Techstrong Unplugged EP12

Hey everybody and welcome back to Techstrong Unplugged. This is episode 12 of our series, and I'm your host, detain Solomon on Techstrong Unplugged. We dive into all things tech and get people up to speed with everything happening across the industry.

Recently, AR cohost Cassandra Chen went to the Great International Developer Summit, also known as gid. At GID 2024, Cassandra sat down with Keto Mann, who was a cun, so software architect, consultant and author Keto shared his journey through the world of software development as well as his early days with the Java and Delphi. Finally, he explored his current role running a consulting firm that specializes in web applications and backend services.

Without further ado, let's head over to Gits 2024. Welcome back to Text Run Unplugged. I'm your host, Cassandra Chin, and today we have Keto Kate.

Hello. Do a short self-introduction. Oh, a short self-introduction.

Okay. Uh, so my name is Keto Mann, and uh, I am a, uh, so, so I, I am a, I run a little consultant firm and we, uh, build software for companies. Uh, usually something with web applications and backend services and stuff.

Uh, and I also like to go to conferences and talk. I wrote a book a long time ago. Um, and, uh, yeah, and I'm also heavily involved in the whole Java community and the Java ecosystem and all that kind of stuff.

Have you been involved with the Java community for a while? Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, I actually, I was in computer science major in college and Java came out while I was in college, and it was exciting and new, and I remember printing out the Java language specification at the computer lab and reading it and being all excited. So I've been sort of working with it since then. I mean, I, I also worked with this, um, when I, when I was at university, I did a, I worked with like a work study, job building, like a, uh, windows database application for one of the like benefits departments.

Um, and that was using a tool called Delphi, which is really cool. Back in the day I ran on Windows. Uh, anyways, so my career started out doing Delphi and Java and sort of been sticking the Java for most of it.

I do work with other languages like JavaScript and TypeScript and Python and stuff, but Java sort of my backbone. So Is it hard to go from Java to other languages? I'd say usually not.

Um, I think the, the only difference is the whole like object oriented paradigm versus functional. Um, so if you went from like, uh, if you went from like Java to like a purely functional language, it would be difficult. And I'm thinking of like a lisp or closure or something, but those aren't very popular these days.

So. Have You tried functional languages? I did.

Um, in college, um, I worked with Lisp and I hated it, but more because of the syntax. Um, so I'm very happy with like, the functional constructs that are in Java and in and JavaScript. Um, but I like having the ability to write classes and objects and work with objects and things and do functional stuff when I want to, when I look at pure functional images, um, I kind of get a headache.

So I like Java as closer to English. Yeah. Yeah.

I can think of it that way. Do you still do any Java coding today? Yeah, I actually, I consider myself a hands-on architect.

So that means that I, I I love writing code, but if I do it too much, I get bored. So like when I've been in roles, uh, as what they call an individual contributor where you're just writing code and you know, yeah, tickets and everything, I get bored after a few months, so, so I like to do both well, so, and I also do a little bit of management stuff, tech lead stuff too. Um, and, but I still write Java and I still write like TypeScript and whatever I need to.

So Does your job allow you a lot of flexibility to do different things? Uh, yeah, it does. Um, but that's mainly because I'm a consultant and it's my own company, so I have flexibility to like come to conferences like this, um, or, uh, or you know, on a particular contract I get some control over what things I work on.

Not, not a ton of control, but some control. So Are there any projects which stood out to you? I mean, there's been a lot over the years.

I mean, I did, I've only been in a, a normal employee once. Um, and it was at a startup in like 2000. This was, uh, this is where my kids would say back in the, you know, it's before the 1990s, so I mean after the nine, after the 1990s.

But, uh, so, uh, but it was, um, so you know, as you guys know very well, there's lots of standardized testing in the, the, uh, US educational system, right. So, and a lot of that started, um, in under the George Bush administration via the No Child Left Behind law, right? So, um, around 2000 I worked at a, an educational startup.

It started out building a, uh, a learning platform and then realized that they needed an actual revenue model. 'cause back then a lot of companies had, uh, cool products, but no actual revenue models. They went on the business.

So this company, it was called the Grow Network, they decided to actually pivot and build tools for reporting on standardized tests that they would sell to school systems, and the school systems would have these reports for teachers and parents and stuff. So that was a really cool, cool product to work on. 'cause I got to like, build off a technical team and build a lot of that stuff.

So that was fun. Are these tests to test like coding knowledge? No, this was like normal, like SOL tests or whatever, whatever standardized tests you have in elementary school and then high school and stuff like that.

So this Is, I remember the systems, I used to take standardized tests in school. I always felt like the systems looked outdated. I can see that I can, they've gotten better now from what I'm hearing from my kids.

They seem to be very adaptive to, like, they'll change based on how well you answer questions and stuff. So Yeah, it's an interesting approach. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, when you take on projects for your consulting, like how much flexibility do you actually have? That's a good question.

I, I think it, it really depends on, on the contracts and like what they're looking for. Because like your goal is to like satisfy their needs, right? Number one.

'cause you, you want them to keep on paying you or, you know, fulfill whatever there is it is they're trying to do. So basically I just spend time trying to figure out how we can satisfy their requirements and those requirements. Maybe something quick, like, you know, an analysis of something or like, you know, helping to, to solve particular problems of how to do something or maybe actually going in and refactoring and rewriting code and stuff like that.

So it really depends. And like I, I do have other people I bring in on projects, so I delegate to them the things they're best at and leave us things that I'm best at for me. So.

So you work with other people? Yeah, But usually only, like, there's one or two people, sometimes three or four, but depends on their project. Are they like in your company or, Or subcontractors?

Um, there's one person that's been working with me for about three years', like an amazing developer. Um, so he and I work really well together. So, And like, how do you find people and connections for your consulting?

So the first thing was I wrote a book like 20 years ago. Um, and I've been riding the coattails of that for quite a while. Um, and that just helped establish me as an expert and then people would say, Hey, you're an expert on X, can you help us?

Because you supposedly know what you're doing. Um, so that was a good thing. Um, and now a lot of it is, there's some of that sort of residual effects of being well known for that.

But then also just being present, being during conferences, being around and being to someone who seems to know about what I'm talking about, um, helps. So, so you really need to like build up your personal name and reputation. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. So it's a branding exercise. So Are there any other topics you wanna talk about?

Um, I'd say that there's, uh, a couple things. Um, we talked earlier, uh, about the, before this recording, um, about, you know, getting kids interested in technology and stuff. And, um, I have two younger kids, 12 and 10.

And I think what's helped with them is just like exposing 'em to lots of different things. So they've been exposed to like scratch, they've been exposed to several of the different, like, early coding platforms, um, and like stuff like Snap Circuits and like also even things like, uh, my son now has a, uh, digital, um, uh, a 3D pen, which is like, kind of like a 3D printer, but you can draw with it. It's really cool.

You make all sorts of stuff, so Sounds really interesting. Yeah, so just throwing a lot of stuff at them and then It's like a whole bunch of toys they get to play with. Exactly.

And they, they've gotten into some of them pretty well, so it's been fun. I think that's a really good approach. Well, thank you.

And maybe they'll be interested to do more complicated projects in the future. I, I hope so. I I think at least one of them will be soon.

So are you giving a talk here? Yeah, actually I think I've got six talks. So, um, that's A lot of talks.

It is. There are some people that have more, but yes, there's six. And the topics range from, uh, AI coding tools to, um, dependency injection and angular to the evolution of web application architectures.

Um, and, uh, a few other things that I can't think of right now. So Are there any like, talks which you think have really interesting points? Well, we all do, of course.

I mean, I mean, there's a lot. I'm sure something stands out to you. Um, you know, the one I'm most excited about is the, uh, the evolution of web web application architecture.

So, um, what I've started looking into is more of like the history of how we build software and, uh, particularly web applications, because that's a lot of what I've built over the years, and I think that's what, what a lot of people build. Um, so, so the talk kind of looks at sort of how the web started, um, how we were building applications around that time with Windows applications and Client server and that kinda stuff, and how web applications evolved and different standards and technologies along the way. And that's been a really fun topic.

So, so It's like a little history lesson. Yeah, Pretty much. But what's interestingly fine, this is history in general, right?

Is that things repeat themselves, right? So there's certain things, certain ways people do things now that we were doing 10, 20 years ago, um, and the cycles repeat themselves, but each time a cycle repeats themselves, there's uh, different forces involved, right? 'cause things have changed.

So that's, that's an interesting area. How do you think knowing the history of web applications would help a, a web developer? Well, number one, I would help them, it would help them understand like different patterns and ways to do things, and also to understand that some of the things that they think are new are not really new.

Um, which hopefully will help people sort of use knowledge about the way things were done in the past to improve the way we're doing things now. So, So it it's just additive, it adds to your base of knowledge and maybe could share with others what you know, or, Yeah, and hopefully it informs the decisions you make, um, and you know, the solutions you build and gives you a better perspective this way. Have you been to Goods before?

Yeah, I've been here once about six years ago. Has things changed a lot? Um, I don't think it's changed a whole lot from what I remember, but it's still a great conference.

So Maybe just like how busy it is or the Sun boards around. Are they different? They're pretty much the same.

It may have been, it was pre pandemic, so it probably was a little bit busier, but it's really busy, so it's kinda hard to tell Outside of the conference. Is there anything you enjoy about India? Well, you know, this is my third time in India and every time I've only been in Bangla Roo, and last time I was here, I, I, I had a plan, at least leave the city for a day, but I fortunately got sick and I couldn't go anywhere.

So, uh, this time I'm actually gonna leave the city on like Saturday and then go somewhere and see some, somewhere outside of the city. Um, but I, I just, I just like it because it's, um, it's very different and very similar at the same time, which is kind of cool. And I remember I'm a really big fan of Indian Cuisines, so it makes me happy just being here.

Do you think like exposing yourself to different cultures can actually help you as a developer? I think so, definitely. I mean, I, I think, I think diversity is very important in general and just having a perspective on how you, how different people are and how you deal with people and I think it always helps you make better software.

So I think we talked about a lot of good points today. Good. I'm glad.

I was a little worried before, so I'm, I'm happy about that. So thank you. Thank You.