From Code to Advocacy with Mary Grygleski – Techstrong Unplugged EP11

Hey everybody and welcome back to Techstrong Unplugged. This is episode 11 of our series, and I'm your host, Atan Solomon on Techstrong Unplugged. We dive into all things tech and get people up to speed with everything happening across the industry.

Recently, our co-host Cassandra Chen, went to the Great International Developer Summit, also known as gis. At GIS 2024, Cassandra met up with Mary Leski, who was a veteran, developer advocate, and tech pioneer. Mary shared her journey from her early days coding in Fortran and units, and her journey to becoming a prominent advocate in the Java ecosystem and beyond.

Mary also discussed the challenges and triumphs of being a woman in tech, the evolution of software development and her passion for fostering diversity and collaboration within the industry. Without further ado, let's head over to GID 2024. Welcome back to Text On Unplugged.

I'm your host, Cassandra Chin, and today we have Mary with us. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, thank you. Cassandra, can You introduce yourself? Sure.

So my name is Mary Leski. I'm a developer advocate. Um, currently to, I'm actually, uh, freelancing myself, just coming, you know, to become independent, um, trying to start my own business.

So, but I as such too, um, I first started right, um, more than 30 years ago, you know, as a developer. Um, at the time there weren't that many women. It was just a, you know, developer coming out.

In fact, I, my very first job was doing FORTRAN and, uh, Unix and C and uh, then Java came into, you know, became the thing in the nineties, and that's when I slowly kinda switched to doing Java. So since like, uh, 2000 I've been working with Java, open source cloud. You know, sometimes you don't, well, I tend to be like very interested in many things.

So I also adopted many other technology, but center around Java ecosystem. And then eventually I became a developer advocate. And so I've been doing advocacy for about six years as of now.

So, yeah, so that's kind of like my computing background. Yeah. How Did you choose to get into technology?

Sure. Um, so as such, I was, I major in math and computer science. Um, so when I was, um, I do have to tell the story that when I first, how I got interested, right?

I grew up actually in a family with, uh, you know, I'm middle of three kids, right? Uh, the, my, my older brother, it's actually a very smart guy, but came to find out, unfortunately he actually has, um, autism. But in any event, with him being so focused in technology and at the time, you know, technology, especially software was starting to become popular in the eighties, like that he got me, um, at least be aware, but I didn't really like him 'cause he was kind of like a little bit bully type of guy.

He thought, he thought he was real smart. So anyway, he got me interested. And for me, I think I should say was that I wasn't thinking so much of becoming, doing computers as my career.

Uh, but at the time, uh, I came to the, uh, well, I went to the US for college, and then I started, you know, when, I remember when I was registering, uh, at the registrar and we had old IBM terminal, but it get got me fascinated because, um, I was like, oh, how does it work? Right? When you, when I was a student, you register with the student information systems and that actually got me very interested at first.

Um, at first too, I wasn't even computer science. I was trying to decide. And then, um, there was also, at the time, you know, computer science was becoming the thing.

Um, so I started, you know, taking classes and I really got interested to want to understand how things work, and that's how I got into computing and then switched my major to computer science and math too. And so that's how I got into it. And naturally when I graduated, I wanted to get into, you know, working with computers.

And first and foremost, two books are always thinking I'm gonna be a programmer. So that's why, that's how I got in. So, yeah, that's, yeah, that's A really cool inspiration.

Yeah, thank you. You needed something to spark you to wanna try to take classes. That's True.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Do you mind if I ask where you grew up?

Sure. Yeah. So I was born in Hong Kong and raised in Hong Kong.

Um, and at the time, right, it wasn't like computers too. Again, the time when I was growing up, there wasn't computers. That wasn't even cell phone then, right?

And, uh, but like I said, I have this brother who's kind of really advanced in his age and his talents too got me becoming aware of it. So that's how I, you know, uh, I grew up. So that, that's, that's my background.

And, um, yeah, so I kind of grew up in more like a multicultural type of, uh, environment too. I went to a school that actually required us to speak English in class. Wasn't international school, but it was run by the, by the nuns, right?

Like Catholic school. And, um, but they were American missionary groups. So then they made us all speak English, which I'm very thankful for.

And because of that, I think being able to get exposed to a language, a different language really helps. Right? And, and so, yeah, and they said to, even with computing, a lot of times too, if you have a, you know, knowledge of speaking other languages, it helps in your development, in your programming too.

And I do believe it because as such, right, these days we have AI and it's all about linguistics. And that's actually talks about how important it is, right? It is a is is a form of communication.

It's really fundamental too. But anyway, I think I carried away, but yeah, so that's myself. Yeah.

So, Yep. So were you doing a lot of development out of college? Yeah, So interestingly, when I first got outta school, right, everybody was like taking computer class.

You would think, okay, I'm gonna do development. But in reality, and as I think a lot of us know that if you are a developer, you come out, you join a company, but the very first thing you do is not usually a brand new development, usually is maintaining some old system and sometimes through their spaghetti coat. Anyway, in my case too, yes, I did programming, but that was more for maintenance type of thing, not like brand new, but yeah.

But that got me going right, so to speak. Yeah. It was d Did he enjoy doing maintenance?

Yeah. You know, ed, I have to say that it's not as interesting maintenance 'cause it's a different, actually quite challenging because all of a sudden you are learning the code of, of it being written by someone bad or not, right? And very often too, those code may not be well written or the whole system, you know, wouldn't be clear and there's no proper documentation and describing the architecture.

So it's a, it it's kind of like a, a challenge of its own too, but it's more like puzzle. You like playing puzzle, you don't know the whole piece. You need to try to puzzle together things and reason it, it's a different sets of skills.

But, but I kind of like it because in some ways too, it, it's like, you know, you're, you're almost seems like CSI, right? Like, um, like a crime investigation, right? Yeah.

Except that it's in that sense, you know, you can think of it also has its own challenges and interests, you know, kind of level too on, on that. But, but for sure too, yeah, I was doing programming. There's, you know, programming language as well as like scripting all kinds of things too that kind of goes around doing development work.

So, yeah. Do you think documentation is being, is it better now? You know, interestingly, I always feel documentation is never enough.

I mean, first of all too is that, you know, a lot of times, uh, with this design systems is it's maybe one or two people's idea of what it should be as a whole. And other people learning it and then documenting it, it's never really very complete. Right?

Most of the time, not, not to say, but I don't think, you know, in general, documentation is able to keep up with the system because, you know, the, the requirements change and people keep changing to kind of, you know, meet new, uh, needs of the, the system, what it serves. So as a result, too, very often, documentation tends to be a little bit lag behind, at least, right. The best of it.

Um, so yeah. So in general, it's not like very good, um, in some sense. Yeah.

So it can always be better. It, Yeah, exactly. However, in some ways too is that, you know, I've done programming long enough that sometimes you sort of have a good sense of how things ought to work or, or even, like, you get better at knowing how it should work, and you go back to actually, you know, kind of like you say open source thing, you can go back and suggest to, you know, the, the people, the core developers, oh, it should be done.

Some, some ways you, you actually are, are kind of, have had that skills to kind of suggest how things can be done better and help them with documentation too. So, yeah. Yeah, I like that.

So, yeah, I'd like to shift the topic over a little. Sure. So like, I know you're wearing a woman in texture.

Yeah, that's true. Do you have a strong stance on it? Yeah, yeah.

You know, interestingly, I, I feel it is very true, you know, for women to be in tech. I mean, it took some time when I first started working, right? That was like nineties, let's say early nineties.

It wasn't as many women and, uh, of the women who were there while I was, seemed to be always the only woman or one of two women in a, in a, you know, in a development kind of capacity. And it's never very easy. And, and I think, you know, it's important definitely to get women into the picture, and I think women can do the job, but very often because there tends to be more men.

And sometimes too, I do have to say the men tends to be maybe either they're not, um, very comfortable communicating, and it may kind of come across as rude or like not very welcoming. I think that's kind of a bit of a misunderstanding, right? I, but I think I do have to say, you know, after working for so long, I do feel actually most people are very kind.

I'd say, yeah. That you do run into one or two that are mean. I mean, you can't help it, right?

And unfortunately, with those like bad apples right, in the crowd, it makes you feel bad. But anyway, to go back to your question, right? Women in tech, yeah, certainly.

I think we should encourage more women if that's what they're calling so to speak, is right. They, they shouldn't be, you know, kind of shy away from it too. That, that's for Sure.

Do you, like the situation has gotten better at all compared to when you first started there? Some, yes. I, I do think so.

I think if you kind of look around nowadays, right? There are a lot more initiatives. There are groups too that are encouraging more women to be involved with, especially development type of work, software type of work.

So, so I think definitely it's getting better, but to me too, it also can be better in some sense. And I don't also think it is necessary anymore to like differentiate their women in tech, or not non women, but it's just more like, I think it should be like all together and it just should be more of a, of a more collaborative type of nature. It it ought to be encouraged on all sides, I feel.

Right. So you think that there's a strong divide between men and women? Yeah, I just, because of the women campaigns exactly.

I, I feel, you know, it's, it's a little strange. And to me, I feel isn't, isn't it? Because sometimes women feel a little bit like unsure, so maybe that's why we form different groups to kind of do things separately, but there's really no need, then let's kind of do things together.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I definitely agree with you. Like, yeah, yeah.

I think sometimes at women events, like they try to encourage men to come as well. That's true. That's true.

It's a little difficult because it's woman in the Name. That's right. That's right.

Exactly. Yeah. It should be more like together, I think.

Yeah, yeah. And like, we should learn how to collaborate well. Exactly.

Exactly. I think so. So yeah.

Do you have anything else you wanna talk about? Yeah, for me, I think, um, you know, um, I'd like to encourage right, more people to, to do things. But I think what I like to encourage, again, not about, you know, men or women or all these gender, but just that collaboration I think is so important.

And also the communication too. And to me, I, after becoming an advocate, right, I, six years ago, I realized it's actually at the core of everything, we want to be able to communicate because you can have the best idea. But the thing is though, if you cannot communicate outside or make it understood by other people, then sometimes too, the effect isn't as profound, so to speak.

Right? You may have the best idea, but you want to learn how to communicate it properly to make other people understand. I think that's actually, you know, it's actually even more important.

Yeah. Sometimes, uh, I think that's another thing is sometimes it tends to be maybe some, you know, with the really deep like core engineers that are really good developers, but very often they don't like to talk, they don't like to communicate, they don't feel it's needed. But the fact is, there is a need to make it known to other people, because only by then, then people will recognize what you can do and you can also get your work, be more, you know, kind of, you know, understood by everybody.

And I, I think that's, that's important. So, yeah. Have you ever had a situation where you've had an idea and communicated it and have made a difference?

Yeah, Well, you know, I'm trying to think. Yeah, it's, uh, to make a difference. Um, I think I have, but I, you know, but sometimes I, because the way I do things, I don't feel I want to be the center of attention.

That's me. I just like to be with people and do things I don't feel necessarily, you know, It's not about making a difference, but just, yeah, something happened when you said it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, yeah, I think I have too, but I, at the moment, I can't think of any specific Yeah, it's fine case, right?

Yeah. So yeah, it's like, yeah, there were, sometimes I say something or maybe on Twitter or something and people responded. Yeah.

I, I think I have too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so you're giving a talk tomorrow. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. What is it about, Okay, so tomorrow my first talk is solo talk. I'll be talking about, um, essentially, uh, leveraging event streaming for doing, like, these are more generative AI type of scenario.

And as folks too, as of today, right? We're kind of, a lot of the chat GPT apps, people are talking about res like retrieval, augmented, uh, generation. And this is like a pattern, a technique that you use for augmenting your LLMs and for doing chat GPT type of app applications.

So in my talk too, it's more about how can we leverage events streaming to kind of help with, uh, you know, kind of LLMs to augment all of the things that LLM doesn't have, essentially. So yeah, as such, it's a bit more of a chat GPT kind of theme, but also then making use of, uh, you know, the streaming and also specifically about an open source project called Lang Stream. So that's, that's the talk that I'll be talking about.

Yeah. Still a chat sheet people, I think AI is a new technology. Yeah.

Do you think it can help bring like more women and diversity to join this, to join AI initiative? Yeah, I, I think I believe so too. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Or do you still think it's highly technical and it'll just have the same problems as Okay, current coding?

Yeah. Yeah. Well that's a very good question.

I think certainly too, we can bring women and as such, right? For AI and especially the ai, this particular, you know, chat GPT, that's what is kind of earth shaking these days. But the thing is though, chat g PT is only like one branch of this whole AI umbrella of things.

And there are so many things within ai, but certainly too, I also see a lot of, you know, the data side of things and governance and other regulatory things. And I think women, we have our specific skills or our, you know, strength too in, in this aspect. And there's so much.

And also as such too, AI as we all know right now, is not regulate, not regulated, right? There, there are just, the world is still trying to figure out this whole thing, you know? And, and it, there has to potential causing problems.

So that's why there's a need to do regulatory type of stuff. So, yeah, certainly too, I think even women being very thoughtful in general, we think of things like deeper or the implications, not just with the technology itself. 'cause sometimes men tend to go very deep, like my thinking, right?

You go into how do you implement stuff, but maybe not paying attention to how does it affect society as a general, right? All these broader type of understanding. I think that's where women can kind of step in.

We have the knowledge of the deep thing. Um, but there's no need to go too deep when you kind of talk about stuff that is broader, right? The implication, I Think it's not just 'cause we're a woman, but we kind of have a different perspective.

'cause yeah, maybe we haven't been in technology as long. Yeah, that Well, that's a good point too. Yeah.

That which is true. Yeah. That, that's right.

And, and I think again, it goes back to in general, we tend to think of things more comprehensive too. We like to think of things like, you know, um, like an overview of things. I think I've talked to also, you know, previous colleagues or friends and they also tend to, we, I, I myself too, I like to understand things on a higher level, like a broader kind of spectrum, how it affects everything.

I think we tend to be like that. Yeah. I definitely like could see it like that.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's like the big picture.

Yeah, that exactly the big picture thing. Yes. And like we talked a lot of, about, a lot of important topics today.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure.

So we've had a really good chat. Thank you, Mary. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Cassandra. Yeah, thank you.