The Real Price of Power in the AI Economy | TSG Ep. 997

2026 marks a turning point. Artificial intelligence is no longer just a tool. It's shaping industries, accelerating innovation, and redefining how humans build, create, and solve problems.

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2026. Join us. Hey everyone.

I hope you like that video. You know, we are, uh, one day out from Predict, I forgot for a second. We're live.

So this is today Wednesday that we're filming. com. Uh, AI is our person of the year.

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Welcome to Textron gang. Happy Wednesday. We're live again.

Uh, for those of you who've watched Textron Gang before our gang, today's kind of core regulars. We've got our man in the valley, John Swartz, our lady in front of the brick wall, Terry Robinson, and of course the dean, Mike Ard. Gang, welcome.

Thanks for joining us, Mike. Beyond Predict being the big news, it's, and you know, of course it's ai. Everything we talk about seems to be ai.

We've got some news in, in out there. Microsoft, Microsoft's doing their share to stem, the affordability crisis. What affordability crisis.

So, you and I talked about this on a previous show, and you were banging the drum about the fact that people shouldn't have to pay for the electricity that is being consumed by all these AI data centers. So I guess the president heard you and had a chat with Microsoft, and Microsoft stood up and said that they will cover those costs in terms of how much electricity that they are consuming. I haven't heard yet from the rest of the builders of those AI data centers if they would do the same thing.

But I sometimes think if I look in some of these small towns, you know, the electric bill for the whole town is a rounding error on some of these AI projects. So what the hell? Why not just pay for everybody's electricity?

But, um, what's your take on this, Alan? I mean, you know, is this a moment in time where the, the president's doing the right thing? What do you say?

Can you say that again? The president heard me. Am flattered.

I'm flattered, but, um, look, the devil's in the details here, guys. What is, what does it really mean that Microsoft's gonna pay the full cost of AI data centers? And should we be grateful that they're paying their own bills and not shifting it onto us?

This sounds like a typical kind of con game, and we know who the con is, right? I should be let, let, let's think about this. I, let's think about this.

These sobs are building trillion dollars worth of data centers running them to charge us to make their profits. And you want me to be grateful, thankful that they're actually paying the cost for it. Yeah.

What world are we living in, you know? Thank you, sir. May I have another?

Mm-hmm. Thank you, sir. May I have another?

Here's Mike. You're onto something. Here's what we should be saying is, hey, as long as we're building all this infrastructure because of these data centers you're building, it is a god darn rou route of sounding era to, to cover the cost, at least the municipal costs, if not all of our individual costs too.

Throw that onto the pie. What the heck? You're not paying taxes most of you for 20 or 30 years, 'cause you got all kinds of abatements to, to build these data centers.

We can't regulate 'em. 'cause regulation can only come at the federal level. Now on ai, it's the least they can do.

But devil's in the details. Here's the real issue. Are we talking about Microsoft just paying the ongoing monthly electricity bill, right?

That most of us pay every month? What about the CapEx expenditure to build this critical infrastructure to generate these things in, in one case with Microsoft, they're taking three mile island outta moth ball. Are they covering the moth ball cost?

Well, everyone's grandma will be a little happy to get free morph balls, but you know, what about, what about the, the, the CapEx cost? Is that included or is just just the monthly I I don't see that detail in there. Or are they just covering the CapEx and, you know, not not monthly kinda stuff.

You know, I, I'll see it when I believe it. I I'm not, you know, kudos to Microsoft for some good PR here and fighting this imaginary affordability crisis that we seem to be talking a lot about for something that's not real. But, um, let's see what happens.

No, What is your Think here? Is this part of some larger political effort around affordability because, well, we've seen them about capping credit card fees and suddenly all these things that they're doing that have nothing to do, allegedly with an imaginary affordability crisis. Exactly.

So this is all, as you said, I think earlier in the green room, this is all about affordability and playing to the base. So we think about all these, uh, data centers and this infrastructure that's being built, and they're places like Texas, Louisiana, the Rust Belt, uh, and the folks are gonna be paying higher energy costs, evidently ev eventually. So Trump in a census playing to his base.

So he wants it both ways. He wants these companies to build outs to massive scale. He doesn't want them to pass on any cost to the consumer.

And I think another thing that he's also probably taking into consideration, although I'm I'm not sure he quite understands it, is that the, none of these places are gonna create any jobs. So he is trying to, he's trying to probably figure out a way to save face. And I also wanna point out that Microsoft, to be the first company to agree to this, uh, I don't know.

I idea in a sense, Microsoft is the master of Mollifying, the, the White House and federal government, you know, after they went through the whole thing with the Department of Justice and Windows back in the day, they have been very, very savvy and, and played the white knight among tech. So I, I suspect you're gonna start feeling pressure and start seeing announcements from other companies like Meta, OpenAI, Oracle, perhaps, who are gonna ae to the same demands that, that Trump has. Um, you know, one other thing I'm gonna mention is this kind of reminds me in a weird way of, uh, these sports palaces that are built on the backs of the, of the backs of the, the fans and the, the residents of areas who pay taxes to help facilitate building of these massive facilities, stadiums, arenas.

And it, it, again, it all goes back to, comes back to the economy and it's all being played into this, as you said, Mike, this political prism in terms of affordability and, uh, it's all a, a big, a big kind of, uh, power play to, to show that he cares that Trump cares about the little person. I think all he really cares about is just getting these massive facilities built Well, yeah. And money in his own pocket somehow.

Um, I, I'm just wondering Yeah, yeah. We, we certainly are paying a lot of attention to something that's a hoax, um, this affordability thing, um, as we tend to do these days. But, um, uh, exactly how does this impact, you know, affordability for anyone, so Microsoft or whoever agrees to, to pick up the energy cost, okay, so it won't add any costs to maybe the average citizen in one of these areas, but how does it reduce anything?

It doesn't, unless these companies do, as Mike says, and, you know, they pick up the tab for everybody's energy. Well, a's point, there's devil is in the details. So I think a lot of the pricing for energy in various states has been tied to demand versus alleged supply.

And whenever demand goes up, everybody's bill goes up. So it's not really just your bill per se. And I think, um, they need to kinda look at the way that, and we actually price the consumption of electricity in, in the world because it doesn't align with these data centers.

Secondarily, I mean, why not have these guys just build their own grids? I mean, you know, there's, if you're gonna go invest in that level, then might as well go build a grid and doesn't use the public grid because, well, maybe the public grid wasn't designed for this in the first place. Well, there you go.

Take it from Texas. Do your own right. You what Could go wrong.

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong? You Go wrong, possibly go wrong.

Jen, I, I wanna hit on something you said, John, you know, analogizing this to large public works projects that are funded by our tax dollars, such as stadiums and arenas and so forth, coasting the Olympic Games or the NFL draft or something like that. Um, in those cases, there are tangible, measurable revenues thrown off by those venues and those events, right? That Pittsburgh is gonna host the NFL draft this year in, uh, April, I think the 22nd.

That, that weekend. And, you know, they're anticipating it generating hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of revenue for the, for the area in ways of, in terms of hotels and food and, and other services. Every stadium right?

Creates hundreds of jobs, not just the people working, building the stadium, but the people who work in the stadium, the, the shops around the stadium. You know, you go down to LA and I, I have, I haven't had a chance to go here yet, but I really want to, I don't know, maybe John, if you have to go down to SoFi Stadium in la I mean, that's like a mixed use project where you have all kinds of retail and, and revenue generating activities going on there every day of the week, 12 months a year. So contrast that with these temples to our ai.

2 billion project. 2 billion on MetLife stadium with the Giants and Jets play, and how much that generates for the surrounding area, it doesn't add up. Right?

And I think ultimately that's going to be the surprise here, right? All the people, especially in the Rust Belt, clamoring for the return of manufacturing and good paying jobs and projects, you know, once the construction's done and the cranes go away and the hard hats get put back in the shelf, what, what's going to be, I mean, they'll be, and, and like I said earlier too, a lot of these projects are getting sweetheart tax abatement deals where they're not gonna pay taxes even for a long, you know, much taxes for a very long time on it. What is the, what is the, besides the noise, what's the plus?

Yeah, yeah. You think about the environmental impact, do you think the, the lack of jobs, you think of the, the costs, I mean the distinction as you rightly point out, Alan, between the public works and something like these data centers, those stadiums were, I mean the, the taxpayers usually vote on these, these types of, these types of projects here. They really didn't have a choice.

And I think in the end results is they're gonna have these massive facilities with minimal humans, probably robots, physical AI operating most of the tasks, and they're gonna be hit with electricity bills that are much higher. And I think in, in his, in Inable way, Trump waits until the process is already in effect, there's no planning whatsoever. And then somebody taps him on the shoulder and says, Hey, you know, our base is gonna get really upset when they get hit with these, these extra costs, and they find out there are no job, so we gotta do something, you know, come up with something.

And then they, they, they, they strong arm a tech company into saying, oh yeah, we'll, we'll pick up x amount of costs in a kind of vague way to mollify people until they forget and then they get hit with it higher prices later. Yeah. Well, and part of the forget is just keep throwing more stuff at 'em every day so that they Yeah.

Distract them. It's the new cycles, right? By the time, by the time this comes through, there's been five other new cycle items.

So it's just like, it's shock. It's crazy. Well, I think also they just don't, people, most people are not, most, a lot of people don't understand, you know, how energy costs are calculated, how, you know, there's, and they don't understand the, the poultry number of jobs that are gonna be offered, and they're not going to do their own research to find out too.

I mean, that's No problem by the way, are not gonna be in whatever remote location that data center is because we are remotely managing most of those data centers. So Sure. The people who are working on that will not be paying taxes in that community.

And there's secondarily, though, there is an old joke in it circles one of my favorites, you know, what's the future of the data center? It's one guy and a dog, and the dog is there to keep him from touching anything. Absolutely.

But there's another aspect I wanna just close with. We could pay more money for a minute for energy, but where is that energy coming from? Right?

It's, you know, Trump media merged with a fusion company. That doesn't mean fusion is gonna be powering these data centers anytime soon. The fact of the matter is our green ha greenhouse gas emission for the first time in years is now going up instead of down.

Yeah. We are already burning more fossil fuels and dirty energy than we were before, and our greenhouse gases are, are reflecting it. And so, you know, just because we're willing to pay for that energy doesn't mean that that energy doesn't have yet an additional cost.

Well, we may not know that. 'cause the EPA is not allowed to talk about health anymore. No, Right.

Health anymore. The, the quality of our air affecting how many people die. But make no mistake, unless we get serious about clean, renewable energy, all of these, we can't power these a or, or do something with clean nuclear.

You know, the only other alternative is go start burning coal again or something. Well, isn't that on the deck? We, We can go to wind power.

I, I know Trump would really like that. Well, yeah, we'll kill all those birds anyway. Hey, we, we gotta transit transition.

I hate using that word transition. It gets people upset, not me. But anyway, we, we've gotta move on to our next segment here.

Um, so a new Taiwan trade deal. I've, I've heard this story before, Mike. I don't know, is this a deja vu A little bit.

But basically the Trump administration is also announcing that they're gonna do a deal that caps the tariffs on Taiwanese exports, so that at the very least, they're similar to what everybody else did. But, uh, the folks at TMSC are committing to building additional fabs here in the United States. John, I know you've been covering this whole space coastally, but, um, you know, how's it is all this, in the end of the day for our national security or economy, what's your take?

Sounds like a kind of a expedient trade on political basis. Like our last segment. I mean, in a sense, the idea is to reduce the tariffs on Taiwanese goods, uh, from my best 28% to 15%, which is in line with what Japan and South Korea are paying.

And in exchange, TSMC is gonna commit to building, I think four additional ship manufacturing plants in Arizona. They already have six there. Um, this would be a incredible, uh, financial commitment if it, it does happen.

And I always say if, because we look back on this and look forward, we're, they're gonna be like a thousand different variations of what happens in this situation. So by the end, we'll, we'll never know, but, uh, they're gonna de devote tens of billions of dollars that evidently to build out in exchange for this lower, lower, uh, tariff percentages. You know, and again, it's deja vu right?

All over again from the last segment. Um, again, it's it on paper. This is what they're talking about.

National security be damned evidently until, until they decide to, to put a bandaid on the latest crisis. Um, I don't know. I, the, the more we look, I look at this infrastructure build out, and it's not gonna slow down.

By the way, there's a, there's a report, I think global data came out with a report about AI tailwinds and this idea that investments are gonna accelerate even more so this year than we thought. Um, we're gonna just see more of these types of deals. And the devil is in the details.

And again, I throw these numbers, I throw out these percentages. We can do this for every story from now until the end of the year. And they're all gonna change, if not, uh, if, if they happen.

So that's kind of where I'm saying I'm being very, I'm very dubious of this whole thing. You're not alone, John. Yeah, really, Alan, let me ask you this though.

So at what point is this not in Taiwan's interest? And I'm trying to scratch my head a little bit about it because, well, if we move more production to the US then at some point the value of Taiwan to us strategically declines. And maybe, you know, when China says they wanna take it back, we don't care as much.

So trying to sort the sound in my head and how this might all play out, You know, the Taiwan knees are crazy like a dragon. It's a paraphrase. Um, let's look at what they get here strategically.

You like that, Sean? I like that. I like that.

I love that. Yeah. Um, what they're getting right now is a reduction in tariffs, and that's what they want.

What are they giving right now? A pledge. This sounds like wimpy, I'll gladly pay you for that burger on Tuesday.

Right. And you know, John, I think you mentioned there are four TSMC plants in Arizona. Oh.

So they have, they have six factories and two advanced packaging facilities. The idea is they're gonna build four more chip manufacturing plants. But how many, but let me ask a question.

How many chips are they actually making in the US and what kind of chips are they? 'cause my understanding is the amount of chips they make is not maybe zero anymore, but it's minuscule. And the kinds of chips they make are second, third, two, three generations old.

These are not their good chips. They're giving us, you know, we're making the, what we used to stamp is made in Japan when I was a kid, and they're made in China, you know, the, the lower quality stuff that's two, three generations old. And and if you ask them, they'll tell you, because we don't have the workforce to work on these two nano chips and, you know, the, the, the, the good stuff.

And so you could build chips till the cows come home, yet that cow chips, um, you could build chips till the cows come home. But if we don't have the workforce to, to, and, and again, these are robotic factories for the most part, but you do need some workers there. If we don't have the know-how and the workers to build cutting edge chips, you know, what do we, you know, that's not, that's not the, the chip factories or chip fabs we're looking for, right?

So good move for Taiwan. They get what they want right now. They promised something dubious in the future.

Who knows what that'll be. And even if they promised it, we can't deliver right now anyway. Well, and what about the security angle?

What an art of the deal. I'm sorry, go ahead. Should I was just saying what, you know, what about the security angle too, on this from, from a lot of different aspects, but correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't China like targeted Taiwanese chips and, uh, quite a bit like state?

What do you mean by by targeting? Well, state sponsored a tax phishing and whatever, um, and, and, and sort of aimed at their chip making. I mean, I believe that's right.

And what, I mean, are there, what kind of guardrails are we looking at here? If this does come to pass, you're right, right now it's just a pledge. But has this administration thought out anything regarding national security?

No, I doubt that John, I think you wrote a story too that says the Chinese are getting their own semiconductor equipment together, and we'll be making semiconductors themselves more aggressively on mainland China, I would assume. So at some point, maybe they'll just wake up one morning and go, yeah, well maybe we don't care about this as much as we used to eat it. They, they may not, they may not.

You know, that, that's, that's interesting that you mentioned Alan. I think Alan mentioned about the, the, the type of chips that they would make if they, if this ever comes to pass, and these are like nominal second rates. I hate to using that phrase, but kind of down the line chips that aren't is advanced, is those that we would like to have.

So in a sense, I would really love to see, and I'm gonna go back to Foxconn. I would really like to see what they ended up end up building, like the, the size of these facilities and the number of people who are actually employed and what they actually produce. Because it's gonna be like vaporware.

Um, I can just see it. And they made a nice deal. I think they snookered, um, our chief executive in the office.

The, you really did snooker him For, for a guy who prides himself on being, you know, the ultimate deal maker. Well, I think they pulled the bull over his eyes To your point about that. They may just manufacture in the us the, the, the, or not the latest and greatest generation of processors, but you know, was treated like a second source for the previous generation.

So you know exactly what they're making and how many things actually rolling out of those factories or may be seen. Yeah, I I wanna say something though about the Chinese mainland, you know, people's Republic of China facilities or plans on semiconductor. This is where the US needs to walk a fine line because if you totally cut off their access to the cutting edge chips, that TSMC is fabbing a lot of times on American design, right?

You cut off the Chinese access to that. They have no choice but to build their own chip making chip designer making capabilities. And in doing so, they, you know how they are.

They'll put a lot of manpower and money behind it, and it may take them a little while, but eventually it'll rival what we see in Taiwan or here in the us. Well, they steal IP Too well by, well, and some of it may, and that may be more than poisoning the Taiwanese chips, Terry. It may be more of stealing the plans for them.

But they, you still need that technology versus what we're doing now where Nvidia can sell China, what is it, the H hundred, right? Of course there's a a 15% cut for the boss, you know, uh, over there for all of the chips they sell to China. But at least it gives, it, it keeps China, you know, it's like heroin.

It, it keeps China on the drugs and, and maybe prevents, not prevents them, but slows down their own efforts to become independent quality chip manufacturers. I think the Chinese are probably too smart, right? They went through the op opioid wars already.

I'm sorry. Yeah. I Buried, I buried the lead.

I buried the lead. Um, I admit. Um, so these four facilities that TSMC says they're going to build, be building, you're gonna be completed sometime during the 2030s, by the way.

Oh, good. Yeah. Coming online sued to a theater near you.

No, but, but you better earlier. But, but something's clearly up with the mainland Chinese folks. 'cause they also saying that, at least allegedly, I think John, you wrote about this, but they're not gonna use Nvidia GPUs.

They're telling people not to use Nvidia GPUs in the latest generation and to use something other than GPUs, which I guess they have more, uh, access to. Um, so ultimately, you know, it seems like they got a bigger plan going on here that goes, that spans more than Taiwan, because I think they figured out that deep seek stuff doesn't need a GPU. So maybe they don't care.

I don't know. That's, that's really, yeah, you know what, and again, it, it sounds, you're right, Mike, that sounds just like China. They, they're, they're thinking years in advance and they actually have a precise plan versus, but we have, which is kind of like, uh, throw something out there, it's broken.

Let, let's figure out how to fix it after the fact. You know, there's just like no rhyme or reason to what we do. Talk, talk about checkers versus 3D chess, huh?

Okay. Hey, let, let's move on because we're liable. I'm liable to have ice break through the door here any second.

We keep talking right there. Oh, No, no, no, no, no, no. Let, let, let's move along and talk a little cyber.

Mike, what do we got? Well, I would just say sometimes we fail to appreciate all the efforts that the cybersecurity folks go through to protect us. And King Charles finally, you know, set an example here where he is highlighting some of the efforts of some of the folks that worked on a particular nasty, uh, campaign that was discovered.

And also, well, turns out NASA sent a very friendly thank you note to somebody in Turkey who helped them find some vulnerability in their systems. And Terry, you know, is it me or, or is there a little civility entering this whole cybersecurity conversation that might wander over give, I'd like to think so. You know, um, it, it was, it was kind of refreshing to see some cyber efforts get the nod from some higher ups, right?

Like, uh, so, so King Charles, um, the, actually, the, the, uh, the person that, that King Charles, um, gave the honors to was, uh, not a cybersecurity researcher or really a cyber guy per se, but he was more the coordinator, um, and sort of a strategic planner behind, uh, disrupting and taking down lock bit, um, and Operation Kronos or Kronos operation, um, a couple years ago, right? And, um, so, uh, by all he, he's the law enforcement guy by, uh, uh, training. Uh, but kind of what came out in all of this is how important those people are in the sort of, in the, the backend, right?

Who are coordinating all of the, these massive operations to try to, to take down, you know, ransomware gangs and, and whatever. But yeah, he, um, he's not a knight, you know, um, at this, but he did receive the order of the British Empire, um, award. I think that's two notches down from Knighthood.

Um, and he was, uh, his name is Gavin Webb, by the way. We should give him his due. And his, um, he, uh, is a lead at the National Crime Agency, which kind of led that whole effort against, um, Kronos.

The other one was, um, actually, and uh, this, this, uh, where I get a little soft here 'cause it was kind of sweet. This young researcher found vulnerabilities at, uh, NASA and through the disclosure program there, you know, reported them in quite detailed reports that he gave. And so he got a letter from, uh, NASA and it says, you know, he was, he was overjoyed and, uh, he said it kind of solidified his career path right now he knows that this is where he wants to be.

And, um, and he wants to, uh, continue to, uh, be a cyber defender. And I think that's, that's great. It's kind of tracks with, and he's a young guy, you know, so it, it kind of tracks with some of the reporting we've done in the past about, uh, I think it maybe Mike will recall last week we also had a story on, uh, uh, ransomware gangs, recruiting teenagers and, uh, you know, whatever.

And so a lot of the people that I spoke with were saying, you know, we need, uh, a way to funnel these kids into something that's not illegal, right? Take their talents and, and take their restlessness and whatever. And that's, you know, Casey Ellis said, bug crowd was in Tre Ford.

We're saying, you know, uh, uh, bug bounty programs are a good place for these, uh, these people to be. So of course, when this pops up about this young researcher in, uh, in Turkey, they were all about, this is the way we engage young people and keep them from going to the dark side and keep them on a more straight and narrow, but very satisfying, uh, path. Terry, did you say Trey Ford?

Trey Ford? Did I say re Yeah. Yeah.

I thought you said Trey Ford from Bugcrowd. Yeah. So Trey's an old friend.

It's good to hear his name Sha out. Yeah, no, What He's popping up quite a bit. He's got a lot to say about Always.

Does Tre Trey's been on top of it now? Crats, of course. KCSI friend Casey, who's down in Australia, but, um, both great guys.

Both great guys. Hey, what was the, uh, the order that the, the Kronos guy got? Um, it was called the, let's see, um, the order of the British Empire Order of the British Empire.

Hey, Better than the participation trophy from fifa. Yes. It's Other otherwise known as an OBE.

So that's O-B-E-O-B-E. That's right. So he is an OBE, if not a sir.

He's an OVE Look, look for a president to be, uh, suddenly labeling himself as a security researcher. So it, It may be that if he wants to do work here, he may have to turn that award over to the president. Isn't that the mo?

Um, but, but I would happy to see if we could figure out a way to, maybe we have the medal of Freedom for citizens, so maybe there's a medal of freedom for the security experts. That would be cool. That would be pretty cool.

It would be a little acknowledgement. You know, I'm, I'm talking about that my shimmy says tomorrow about acknowledging some of the great work our security researchers have done over the years. Um, I want to quickly mention NASA, though.

Good for NASA to acknowledge this young man from Turkey, you know, in an age where we seem to be shunning public space works and, and all the noise is about, uh, private space. We, we sometimes forget the groundbreaking work NASA has done at places at JPL and Goddard and places like this and all of the great science. You know, it, it, I was talking to a friend of mine, Todd Vernon, who worked at NASA years and years ago, that that was the place where smart people wanted to go work.

That that was where the smart people in the government were, you know, through the Apollo missions and, and after. And, you know, it certainly had its trials and tribulations through various administrations. This most recent administration has really cut hard, but it still remains a place where the good guys are.

I think for the most part, they, yes, they may not be the most efficient spenders of public money, but the, they dream big dreams. That's right. And they, and they do the right thing.

So kudos to NASA for having a good, uh, vulnerability disclosure system. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. No, that's great.

And I mean, NASA had always been sort of an envi, enviable place to work too, hadn't it? I mean, people really mm-hmm. Wanted to work there.

People really this country was really proud of nasa. And yes, they've had some stumbles, like legitimate stumbles, but they've been sort of demonized, uh, as has everybody else, I guess these this last decade or so. Um, so it is, but it is good to see them sort of rise above the fray and recognize a young person, you know, who did something good, Absolutely Demonized by somebody who wants to have that money go to some sort of contract from the government that goes to their company.

That kind of demonized. Yeah, that kind of demonized. But Yeah.

Okay. If we don't have anything else, I make a motion to adjourn our text gang for today. If we have a second, just following the little for a second.

All those in favor following the little parliamentary order here, as long as we're talking about King Charles. Um, John, Terry. Mike, thanks for joining us.

Thank you for watching. We've got Techstrong TV immediately following our live gang today. com.

Register for the event. Go check out all of the great future naval gazing sessions here about so many things, tech, you, you don't wanna miss it. Um, but for now, on behalf of Techron, thanks for joining.

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