Techstrong Gang – May 28, 2024

Hey, everyone. Happy Tuesday to you. Long weekend here for us in the us some of us are counting our winnings on Nvidia.

Others are fighting the Linux Wars. I thought that war was done. And in the meantime, AI is proving to be the secret weapon in the revenge of ITSM, all that and War on Textron Gang.

Hi everyone. Alan Shovel here for Techron Gang. It's Tuesday.

We've got a full, full boat of, of, uh, stories and news and topics to cover. Let me tell you who we've got on the gang with me this morning. First of all, it's kind of a normal gang, uh, no special guest.

But first of all, joining us from her perch up in San Angelo, Texas. It's our editor for Techstrong, AI, tech Strong, uh, ITSM, and, and, uh, digital CXO, our own. Amanda Ra Sini.

Ani. Ani Reini. Anyway, uh, Ani.

Amanda, welcome. How are you? Good.

Just getting back from, uh, another technology conference. It went well. Good.

Glad you made it home. Joining Amanda also from his, his portrait is a little higher at top, a higher mountain way up in the Rocky Mountains. It's our CTO and resident, uh, analyst for tech, strong research Principal analyst, Mitch Ashley.

Hey, Mitch. Welcome. How are you?

It's Good to see everybody's made it back home between Mike and Amanda, So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of back home from Barcelona, by way of Newark, New Jersey.

Mm-Hmm. It's our own chief content officer, Mike Ard. Hey, Mike.

Hey, good to be home. It's, you know, it's, it's hard. Newark never goes easy.

No, It never, I think, you know, it took me longer to get from Newark to Fort Lauderdale than it did to get from Barcelona to Newark. Yeah, It's a Newark thing. Yeah.

If, you know, you know. Anyway, um, hey, we've got a lot to go over on, on Techstrong today. You know, I was at a friend's graduation part, a friend's daughter's graduation party.

Two weeks starts talking to his older cousin. The guy's like a assistant mayor for Davey Florida, and he knows I'm in tech. He was talking tech with me, and he was asking me about some tech companies and, you know, from, from a stock point of view for his portfolio.

And I said, well, did you ever hear of this Nvidia company? He said, no. I said, oh, they're big on these AI chips.

He says, I got something in Ai vi Vita something. And I said, you sure it's not Nvidia? He said, wait, let me look.

He looks it up. This guy's been sitting on NVIDIA's stock for about eight years now. Yikes.

He said, oh yeah, I've done pretty good in it. I said, yeah, you've done pretty good in it, but, you know, this is why I still have to work. Where was I eight years ago?

But yes, NVIDIA's still urging. Stupid Money's not so stupid. Right?

Stupid money. Stupid money's pretty smart. I'm the stupid one, but what's going on?

I, I thought we, you know, I thought it peaked and it was coming down, but, So, and I wonder, I'm asking this question myself, because Nvidia has, if you saw their report last week, um, you know, they're like a 400% jump in data center revenue, which is where they record most of the stuff for GPUs and ABIs, and it's off the charts, and it's probably gonna continue for a little while in that, on that pace. But, um, it much like nature of horrors of vacuum, and there's things going on in the world that kinda lessen our dependency on Nvidia. 'cause a lot of folks are getting a little concerned about being locked into Nvidia.

Yes. We have, um, you know, if you look beyond the hardware, there's cuda, which is their software for writing to the parallel framework, which is nominally open source. And then there's nims, which is a microservices framework that adds a layer of abstraction so that I can programmatically invoke things like Kubernetes underneath it.

But, you know, they're not real open source in the sense that they don't belong to a consortium and only people writing code for this thing seem to work for. And it, It's Big Brother open source is, is what it is. But here's the thing, you know, we, we, on gang, I guess it was a week or so ago, we had Microsoft did a deal with a MD for, for, uh, you know, AI chips for people on Azure.

Uh, we're, we're seeing Intel in all of the usual suspects. And, and some new guys come out with sign, I wanna call 'em Next Gen GPUs or Next Gen AI chips. Is it, is Nvidia getting good while the getting's good?

Or do they just have this built in advantage that they're the next intel? Yeah, I think the lock-in is this software layer that shows up. Yeah.

Because I'm not gonna be able to really take, uh, CUDA and maybe NIMS to a small degree onto those other processors so easily. And we have another generation of AI processors that are coming down the pike, because one of the things about GPUs is they're designed for graphics. And the reason we use them is that they're great at parallel processing, but we don't need the graphics overhead.

So we're gonna ai, you know, so someday we're gonna see Someday A class of AI chips specifically designed for that. There are folks out there like, um, Chris Ner who wrote Swift, who's trying to drive something called Mojo, which is based on Python, that's gonna enable people to write things that look like Cuda. So the C community is starting to kinda rally around with software to kind of break that lock in.

It's not gonna happen overnight, but yeah, I'm not quite clear. We're totally sold in that, you know, AI equals Nvidia. And I think when I look at Wall Street, it seems to, but They, they sold it.

I mean, Mitchell, Amanda, I mean, we grew up throughout our careers, and some of our careers have been a little longer than others where, you know, it was Intel. And then there were some imitators, a MD, you know, every couple generations they, they put on a good, a good, uh, fight that said their latest chip was as good or better than the latest Intel chip. But, you know, it was Intel then the X 86 architecture.

And then of course, we've moved to risk, more risk-based, uh, ARM-based architectures now. But our, I mean, I don't think any of us want to be locked in. And I think, to your point, Mike, that's why everybody's sort of getting a little antsy.

Yeah. Except Wall Street. They're counting their money.

Yeah. Stock. Go ahead, Amanda.

Well, I think business leaders definitely don't wanna see a monopoly in this area. And, and like you were talking about it, it's kind of, uh, right now the whole supply chain all links back to Nvidia. And if there's a bottleneck somewhere, there's an issue for all business businesses.

Um, so there are, you know, we have heard of some companies trying to produce their own chips, um, so far not anywhere near the level to compete, but there are some companies working on it. I think OpenAI even talked about producing their own chips, um, a while back. And I had an interview with a company coming outta stealth mode trying to produce, um, a new chip that they thought was gonna be the latest and greatest.

So, you know, we'll see how it plays out. I mean, there are a lot of these chip projects out there, but they all seem to go back to the same fabs. And so we're all short of chips anyway, because none of those fabs seem to be increasing capacity anytime soon.

But Mitch, what are your thoughts about what can I do as an IT person to kind of not get myself locked into this thing three years from now? Well, and I think to your point, we're, we're, we're dealing with both a, uh, hot market and a, and what we've perceived at least is the scarcity of AI chips, Nvidia chips. And that's really accelerated.

I think the third factor is you don't ramp up a new chip product, uh, whether not ignoring the fab issues, just creating a new AI chip is not any small matter. Um, so we've got a time lag for these other alternatives to start to make an a difference in market, especially with Intel, um, from where they're starting. I, I think for, uh, we're talking about the hardware fabric of this, right?

When we're speaking at chips, and you mentioned Cuda, which, uh, is sort of the bane of, of people's existence because it is only really functional on Nvidia chips largely. So, and that's why this mojo effort is so interesting because it isn't Python, but it's based on the Python language. So if you know Python, you could now write in something that will be much more higher performance based.

And I can see, I definitely see that taking off or other similar kind of approaches like that as in addition to just libraries that you could develop within Python. So if, if, if I'm, if I'm in it, if I'm in heavily invested in data centers, then I care about, well, what do I need for AI chips in my facilities? If I'm not as heavily embedded in, uh, invested in data centers, then I'm looking at, you know, what's, uh, AWS doing with their chip?

What's AWS doing with nvidia? What's Azure doing? Et cetera, down the line, right?

Because they all have their own chip strategies as well as partnering with folks like Nvidia. Nvidia. So I think Nvidia, a lot of out of it is being at the right place at the right time too, right?

I mean, who knew they were gonna be the, the cyber currency, uh, platform. It just, that processor, um, works really well. The one thing I'll throw into though is I think that thing we might be surprised by with the Apple Conference coming up, developer conferences coming up is, you know, they've been putting NPUs neural processing units as part of their a chip and also the M chip series, but nobody's known if they're using them for anything.

So are we suddenly gonna see this new capacity exposed to developers to do things on iPhones and Macs and iPads and things? Wouldn't that be a b***h that Apple, apple almost, you know, unconsciously backs into AI chips? There's a lot of unconscious backing in behavior here between the two companies here.

Yeah. If you notice the trend uhhuh, It's, Yeah. I mean, we'll see, I'm, I'm, I'm interested.

See Wow. Right? That Steve Shades of Steve Jobs Sleeper must awaken.

But, But let me, let me say something on this though too, Mitch, you brings something up. You know, with the advent of cloud and virtualization, many folks in it were abstracted out of the hardware chip discussion, right? Because when you think about it, do you know what?

Google Cloud, you're in Google Cloud, do you know what hardware you're on? You're on the Google Yeah. Platform.

I mean, I know, but that's my Job. Well, no, many IT people aren't. And it's the same with AWS, it's the same with Microsoft.

We were abstracted at, because we we're at the hypervisor, and we just go from the OS up. And if, and if we're doing, you know, platform as a service, we're going even from above the OS and that's it. No one cares anymore.

Is it a, a next 86 chip? Is it, what, what's the architecture I want? I it, it's just a compute platform.

So for many people other than stockholders and you, your stock market players and you do, they really care. I think they care when they can't get the GPUs and when the costs are high. Because today, if I want to use GPUs in the cloud, I'm like signing six month year long leases.

I, and it's not like I'm really benefiting from the cloud economics the way I do on traditional vm. So the conversation's a little bit different around GPUs. Um, a lot of folks are, uh, we talked on a previous show because of that cost.

They're trying to figure out, you know, can I go to Dell and HPE and get GPUs in a server that they go find for me? Maybe we will see, um, there's a lot of folks who are trying to use, as we've talked about in the past, other processors to run the inference capability, but the other processors don't process in parallel. So there's a bit of a performance hit when you go do that, but at least you can get your project running on, uh, some sort of endpoint somewhere.

There's a lot of decisions to be made now that it people do care about. And it all comes back to that, you know, GPU, can I get to it? And, and at what cost?

Look, necessity is the mother of invention. Mm-Hmm. And I think people will figure out what's the most efficient, best way, way to do these things.

So wait, come in full circle. What, what, what year is stupid money shorten Nvidia? Not this year.

I, you know, look, and please don't believe me in any stock market tips or anything I give you, 'cause I'm, I'm still here doing this instead of on some island somewhere driving by. I want to drive my boat today, but I had to work. So if I had, if I was smart about stock, I'd be on the boat today.

At least you got a boat. But at least I do have a boat. You're right.

But, um, look, I, I think Nvidia is locked into a leadership catbird seat here for at least the next 24 to 48 months is, is how I see it. I, you know, they, because, you know, once you got that whole position, it, it's hard. I mean, people gotta work twice as hard to overcome you.

So, So I, I think they are, and there aren't Alan, because they are from a who, who's there, who's got the capacity, who's owning the market at the moment, if we do see things like mojo start to take off, it's the Cuda, right? That locks you into Nvidia. And if we think, see things like mojo start to take off now people have sort of that cloud option of, okay, I can use multiple underlying hardware platforms if we're stuck in the land of Cuda.

Yeah. Then we're on a long train with, Well, I'm just sitting here, Mitchell, imagining to myself, what do people who are in this, they, if someone happens by chance to come through YouTube or something and listen to it. And here you got Mitchell saying, Hey, you know what's gonna happen?

You're, it's Coda that lock you in. But if you got so mojo, you're okay. What do we what?

Do what, what, what is this world? It's Called slang, tech slang Here. Hey, mojo kudo.

Let's go to war over Linux. That's coming up next. com is the leading resource for news analysis and education on challenges facing the cybersecurity industry.

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And we're talking about these Lennox Wars that are cropped up. Again, the folks at Amma Linux, which is a, oh, for lack of a better phrase, a fork slash clone of, uh, rel from Red Hat, um, now have their own little, uh, technical steering committee that they've invited folks to participate in, which is another signal from them that they are going to be more open about the future development of Linux than say, um, a lot of people. D Red Hat for, um, and this is not the only Lennox distribution that's running around out there, but it seems like the split in the marketplace is coming down to, um, large enterprises still like to have a subscription from somebody like Red Hat, but, you know, big companies that provide hosting services and all this other stuff are like going, we're not going that path.

So there's gonna be multiple flavors of Linux floating around, and some people will cross back and forth between these things. But you've seen this war before. We have.

Well, you know, there's always been multiple flavors of Unix floating around, right? There's Ubuntu, there's Susa, there's Debbie, there's multiple flavors of Linux floating around. I think the real, to me, the interesting piece of this, and we covered it while you were outvoting around Gowdy and stuff in Barcelona, I I was getting me educated.

That's how you were getting educated edu educated, educated from the Bronx. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, we, we saw this with, uh, we had someone on last week with HashiCorp and, um, uh, open Tofu. I, well, actually it was a interview I did.

It's up on text on TV with one of the founders of Open Tofu. This is, this is an open source issue. This is about Red Hat did something that p****d people off in the open source industry to the point where they wanted a fork, right?

And it's around not just rl, but I think it's also around Centex syntax, which is the other Linux distro they had bought. And they changed their licensing. And not only did they change their licensing, they changed like the frequency of major and minor upgrades and stuff like this.

And a lot of people weren't happy, unhappy enough to go out and fork. You got this Almer and you have Rocky mm-Hmm. Rocky Dad is a huge following there too.

Rocky Linux. Um, My personal opinion is it's a good thing. Yeah.

The more Linuxes are out there, the more they, they'll compete with each other to, to bring the best product to, to, uh, market. And I think for many Linux users, and don't forget, we're talking about Linux here. This is the open source poster chop for many Linux users.

The more open it is, the more community is involved in steering it and guiding it and so forth, the better the Linux it is. And if they can carve out a, a, uh, a niche for themselves here because of like this engineering, uh, steering committee and community involvement, more power to them, I think Red Hat's gonna have to make a decision here. Or IBM, whatever you wanna call it, are they, you can't be a little bit pregnant or a little bit open source, And you go, Mitchell, do you think that the vendors underestimated the ability of the open source community to rally around and quote unquote fork anytime there's a license change?

'cause it does seem like when I talk to those people, man, they're p****d. Well, it, we, we've talked about this before of the, is our, our enterprises or businesses truly altruistically behind open source in the spirit of it. Or when financial conditions change, the board changes, leadership changes, suddenly the model changes.

Now you can debate why Red Hat changed its real model to a business source or whatever we want to call the license now. But you had to expect the counter to a reaction to that is, well then community sourced spinoffs or Forks, Alma being one of them, is gonna get more prominence. It's already very, very well supported and liked by many people.

And I think this putting the steering committee together just sort of solidifies that, okay, we are gonna have a, a transparent, visible process about how it's gonna be managed. So, you know, I don't think Red Hat cares. I think Red Hat has got its market of customers and it doesn't wanna, you know, fight the, uh, open source wars anymore.

Yes, they're providing open source, but to their customers and okay, but that's not the Linux that we used to know. So I, you know, the, I I haven't having built products on like CentOS and then suddenly CentOS kind of falls out of favor because of what Red Hat does. I think we've learned our lesson, red Hat and Lennox in this open source model.

It has its own view of the world, and you have to be careful what part of that, that, uh, strategy you buy into, You know, we have this ongoing discussion in the Kubernetes world about why isn't there, or should there be a long-term release version of Kubernetes that's supported by the CNCF? Because a lot of that is done by the folks who provide the distributions of Kubernetes. Yet it seems to me that the open source community, if they were really torqued, could, instead of letting these vendors emerge to provide quote unquote curated services, build something that is, you know, here's the innovative track line and then here's the long-term release track line for the enterprise.

And they could say to them, at least you can standardize on that. And then the dependency on services from curated providers becomes less. And I think that that's the path They're gonna wind up going down eventually they're gonna be like this bifurcated two path route.

But isn't that what Red Hat tried to do here? Well, that's what they originally were doing. And then they pulled that one, which was kinda like, you know, basically, 'cause they said, you know, too many companies were providing hosting services and things like that, and they weren't getting paid for that.

And they were like, you know, that's not gonna make sense for us. We're talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about there was a, a fast track release and stable Release program.

Mm-Hmm. I thought that's what you Were referring. Yeah, they, well, well, they had the two for, they had one of those for Rel, right?

And they had one for KNO and CentOS, and then they tried to push everybody in CentOS into the Rell, into the r uh, fast Track innovative thing and all the URA stuff and everything they do on that side. Uh, but the Santos people were saying, you know, we're not going, But see, I think, I think Alma's got it, right? They're basically taking a page out of Red Hat, early Red Hat, right?

Mm-Hmm. It's in way, it's real binary compatible. So if you're been using that, that's great.

It is a, it's a performance stability focused, uh, version of Linux. It provides commercial support that you can sign up for. Um, so it's not just the freewheeling kinda open source community.

It's, it's a kind of enterprise grade. Now, you could say, are you gonna run SAP on it? Maybe not, but maybe, maybe.

So. I don't, I've tried, tried to do that, but it, it's a very stable and usable Linux in a business environment or a hosting environment. And I think they're in a good position to, you know, you were talking about nature abhors the vacuum, right?

Red Hats shift creates this opening, and people like Almar are gonna step in it, and they are All right. The, the Rebels are getting ready to fight the Empire Man. By the way, there's a new, this is also coming, I your coming out.

This is coming out as a new series on net Netflix, the Linux Wars. So, uh, I think it's in August, it'll be starting. So I, David Bryn is the author.

So David Bryn, who plays Leus Stuff. What's that? Who plays Leus?

I thought you were playing Linus. No, no, no, no, No. Oh, maybe it's Amanda.

Amanda. You should play it as Linus. Okay.

I mean, you know, to quote The Godfather, you know, every couple years it's good to have a get a little blood out. It gets, you know, some of the bad feelings outta the way. And we've gotta go through this stuff.

Mikey, We went from Linus to Grandfather. Yeah, well, everything I know. I learned watching those movies.

Anyway, Hey, let's make peace here. We're gonna take a break on text. Drunk Gang.

We're back with the revenge of ITSM. I'm Bonnie Schneider, sustainability contributor to the Techron Group. I'm excited to introduce you to a groundbreaking new initiative from Techstrong Research, the sustainability pulse meter.

The pulse meter offers valuable insights into how environmental responsibility factors into tech purchasing decisions for key players in the industry. Position your company as a leader in the industry and differentiate from your competitors with a sustainability pulse meter offered exclusively from Techstrong Research. Hey folks, we're back.

If you've been following it for a while, you've known that there has always been a little bit of tension between the DevOps folks and the traditional IT administrators that use graphical tools to manage it, that kind of fight a little bit over who's gonna manage what workloads. And what we're starting to see is that, uh, the ITSM folks think AI is gonna, you know, give them an edge again, against all those DevOps guys because from their perspective, they're looking at things like SolarWinds is now injecting Gen AI into ITSM Nutanix when I was in Barcelona, was showing their Gen AI tools into their platform. And they're very ITSM centered, even Microsoft's now in on the act over in, uh, uh, on a side stage in Seattle last week, they were showing something called automatic, which, you know, lets you automatically deploy Kubernetes clusters on a KS and you don't need to know anything about programming.

Um, and so there's this push and a debate that seems to be going on that says, you know, are the ITSM folks gonna get new tools so they don't have to be software engineers to let them manage at scale. Or the alternative approach is, you know, those small DevOps teams are just gonna use their expertise in gen AI to take over more workloads. And, you know, there seems to be this, uh, push and pull in the system.

You know, Mike, this reminds me of Yankees and Red Sox fans prior to 2003, right? The Red Sox fans used to think everything. They looked through the universe through a I hate Yankees lens.

And so everything that happened to them or didn't happen to them was a result of those damn Yankees where Yankee fans, the Red Sox, they were just some sad, so team that hadn't won a pennant since they traded Babe Ruth Mm-Hmm. Now it's not like that anymore. I'll give them credit.

They've had a good run. You know, it, it's probably over. Um, it's the same thing here with DevOps, DevOps, DevOps people.

No, we don't necessarily hate ITSM people. We'd love nothing better than to have AI come in, allow them to get, to automate some more of their processes so it moves a little faster at today's business level. If we can make ITS, um, move at today's speed of business through AI and automation, I think it's good for everyone.

There's no need to get territorial or put up silos, you know, it's about kumbaya and, and so good, good, good on these people who are looking to make ITSM better, faster, more automated, inject a little AI in there. I think it, you know, that rising title lift all boats, including the USS DevOps. Part of the conversation we were having in Barcelona is though this doesn't automatically happen, right?

The ITSM folks have to still uplevel their skills. I mean, just because I got a new tool doesn't mean I know how to use it. And one of the big conversations was, you know, at what rate is that actually going to happen?

Because a lot of the ITSM folks are kinda just used to like, you know, clicking on things and things happen, and they don't have a maybe as deep an understanding of what's happening as a DevOps engineer might have. So I don't know, Mitchell, what's your take on this? But, you know, my sense is, uh, there is, uh, a lot of angst in that side of the house.

They're looking forward to like grabbing some of the more, uh, high-end workloads and feeling a little jealous about that. But maybe they're underestimating what it takes to do that. Well, the last, last time I checked, uh, with a gen ai, gen AI bot, you didn't care whether you worked in operations or TSM or DevOps or the executive suite, right?

It's, it's pretty democratized technology. And I think like any, any, any human, they're gonna look for new opportunities and tools and technology is gonna help them do their job and do it better. Um, I think this is a little bit of fighting the last war, you know, when the, the silos between IT and operations, and you know what, who really cares?

If you want to fight those wars, then I think it's just, uh, perpetuates the battle. Hey, let's equip people with, um, with technology that's gonna help 'em do their job. If, if people in operations are even faster or more effective or can do more, um, all the better for all of us, right?

We want, you know, the thing about DevOps is that it really did help kind of lift all, all boats, right? That rising tide idea of elevating security, elevating operations, elevating now platform engineering and SRE, and not solely because of DevOps, but it did, did kind of help democratize that we need to work together. And AI is democratizing technology and access to it.

So it's inevitable. Let's support 'em, let's help 'em Get success. I say the same thing.

And, and Mitchell, I don't think we could minimize the role of, of, uh, of, um, SRE, you know, site reliability engineers, SRE and the platform engineers here. Mm-Hmm. I think they inherit the ITSM mental, right?

It's not necessarily ITSM versus DevOps. It's how does this all fit in? And I think platform engineering and SRE, which though they may be new names to the audience, the jobs they do lay in this traditional ops field, I think Yeah, that's what I was gonna go, go ahead.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is I don't know where the conflict is here. I mean, there should be some sense of a collaboration between these two. And I mean, AI is gonna infiltrate every aspect of business because everyone wants to be more efficient and have tools to supply processes.

So I just say there should be no conflict. It should be a collaboration. I would say, you know, I would love to have Kumbaya, but the reality is, and maybe it just comes down to how the teams are organized, right?

They're usually two different teams in these organizations. Then they have, they compete for workloads with each other. And so maybe we need to reorganize it.

Well, that, and, and so that's at the heart of DevOps, right? We need to break down those silos. Mm-Hmm.

And you know, look, I don't blame those Red Sox fans for hating the Yankees, but we're all baseball fans. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll leave it at that. Now, the Yankees are doing well. He's more Generous.

Yeah. Yankee, the, the Yankees have been doing pretty, how are we gonna side Soto? That's what keeps me up at night.

But, uh, anyway, I, I, I think honestly nothing would make me happier to see a resurgence of ITSM leveraging ai. I would go to Mitch's point, though. There's something here about fighting the last war.

Yes. And yes, there is. And I have to wonder, you know, a lot of this stuff is leading towards where somebody who's neither IT or DevOps is just gonna say to Gen ai, build me a website.

And that'll be that. So, uh, you know, how automated can automated get, because, you know, it may ultimately be that end users are gonna go, you know, thanks for playing for the last three decades, but we gotta move on. The Yankees win.

I was waiting to throw that in there. I think it may very well be, look, you know, uh, we haven't really done a, a lot of talking about this new, uh, uh, four oh chat GPT-4 Oh. But you can start doing stuff like that now, right?

Just talk to it, tell it, right? And describe it what you wanted to build and off it goes. Um, but, you know, arose by any other name that could still be some ITSM folks who are doing that.

And, you know, again, it comes down to this guys, it's not about AI replacing people. It's about people leveraging ai. And whether you're an ITSM, an SRE, a platform engineer, a DevOps team, you need to be leveraging AI to be to 10 x your productivity, to 10 x what you do to be more valuable to the organization.

Let me throw This in there. I, I think ITSM is in a great position to leverage AI and to take this on the last, the last war was ITSM is too dogmatic and strict and whatever, you know, things that it got, you know, knocked for and, and, and DevOps got knocked for nobody. We don't need any other people.

We just need developers and you all can go away. Sounds kinda like ai, right? And we all found out that, that that's not true.

But in, I think the four version four of ITSM, they adopted it. So they stepped back and said, wait a minute, we gotta adopt a lot of these ideas that are in DevOps and behind Agile and collaboration, things like that. And that, that took a different turn.

So you assume for the moment that that's, that momentum will continue. I think, I think the, uh, operations ITSM groups are in a great place to leverage this and be part of, you know, what's happening in it. We don't have to fight about it.

0 manifesto that nobody read. Well, I read it to use your Well, I know what that hardware Is. I, you know, Mitch, I agree with you though, but, and, and I, we got, I, I think it would do us sort of stay away from kind of the war, you know, the w word to describe these things.

I, I think, I think all of us in this age of AI are, you know, putting our feelers out and turning on our spidey senses to figure out how we play and how we fit and how we best do this. And, and it, there's, and there's going to be some jostling, there's gonna be some uncertainty, there's gonna be some experimentation. I think that's par for the course.

Par for the course. I think that there is such a thing as DevOps envy among the ITSM set and, you know, some hard feelings still that have not quite been mollified just yet. And we'll see how it plays out Red Sox fans.

Alright, I think that's gonna end us here for Text Drunk Gang today. You know what, uh, we're heading into the month of June. It's gonna be a big month.

We've got a big announcement around Textron TV and Textron Gang coming out this month. Stay tuned for it. Mitchell, you and I are out in Santa Clara this week at our first, um, tech Field Day event for app dev.

And then that should be a lot of fun. And then we are also in New York this month for a, we're gonna have a live satellite along with CloudBees, uh, for the platform Con Engineering, which we'll probably have about 25 to 35,000 people registered worldwide. Mm-Hmm.

Uh, it's based in London though it's virtual. There'll be a big London Physical presence and New York and Austin, and San Francisco and Shanghai. So looking forward to that.

But in the meantime, we'll, we'll be back here on Thursday with another great text Strong gang. Stay tuned for the rest of the Techstrong tv. Until then, this is a Hummel, we're Out.