Techstrong Gang – February 17, 2025

Hey, everyone. Happy Golden Jubilee to Microsoft celebrating 50. Wow.

What does that make the rest of us? You're watching Textron Gang. Hey everyone, happy Monday.

It's Alan Shimo for Textron Gang. As I mentioned in our opening, a golden Jubilee celebrated by Microsoft kind of officially makes them middle age, I think though 50 is the new 30, um, or something like that, they say, uh, we've got that and a lot more to talk about on this beautiful Monday. Hope you all had a great Valentine's Day weekend.

Um, let me introduce you to our gang members for today as we jump into things. First of all, she's still in her Valentine day, red looking good. She is the editor of, uh, Textron ai Gestalt it AI expert here, Saha.

Hey, Sona, welcome. It's great to have you here. Thank you, Ellen.

It's good. Great to be Here. Thank you.

Also, joining us from where we, we hear there might be snow flurries up in the mountains of New Mexico. She's CEO of Deploy, hub Aurelius, uh, open source all around open source Guru and Linux Foundation member Tracy Reagan. Hey, Tracy, how are you?

Hello, Ellen. And yeah, 50 years from Microsoft. It's, uh, kind of shocking actually.

I hope, I hope, uh, 50 is the new 30. Well, If they're 50. My my point was, my thought was if Microsoft was 50, when did I first become aware of Microsoft?

But I thought the same question. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anyway, jumping over from New Mexico to Harrison, New York, and that's not named for any of the presidents last night, Harrison, as we found out last week, he's our chief content officer, Mike Ard. Hey, Mike, welcome. It's great to have you on.

Good to see you guys as always. Yeah. Um, so let, let's jump into it.

Mike, I think you went down last week. You went down to the city to help celebrate this golden Jubilee. Yeah.

Microsoft is hosting a series of, uh, receptions at their offices around the country, and they were in New York last week. And, um, it was nice to see a lot of folks that I had not seen in a while, and I always kind of looked at them and I said, wow, man, they got old. And then I thought about it for a minute and I'm like, geez, maybe I got old too.

So, I don't know. Um, and it was interesting though, 'cause in me, everybody kinda, you know, a little bit wiggy about 50, and then they all got a little nostalgic, which, you know, was always nice to do. But I also looked back in time and I thought about, geez, all these intense battles and arguments that people had over the years.

And as I look at 'em now, they all seem a little petty. And I was just kind of like scratching my head going, you know, maybe we don't spend enough time on the right things, or we just kinda argue too much about things. But even so today, there's still this little vibe out a Microsoft about, you know, they wanna be the dominant player and they keep referring to things like Azure as the world's computer.

And, you know, they still have that little edge on them where they're kinda like, you know, we don't wanna own everything. And so it's just kind of an odd time still. But we are seeing Bill Gates writes some reflective pieces on AI and where things are going.

I suspect we'll see a lot of these pieces over the coming year. But Alan, how are you feeling about Microsoft these days? Pretty much as I always felt.

But you know what, Mike, listening to you, I, I I, I, I agree. I think, you know, for so long they were so omni potent in, in my lifetime, right? In my career in, in terms of technology, right?

I, I guess IBM was like that before them in the, if I guess in the fifties, sixties, even early seventies. IBM was this monolithic Venus, Microsoft was that in my career for the most part. And it was okay to knock 'em, it was okay to throw stones at them.

It was okay to make fun of them. It was okay to hate them in some circles, right? They, they were, they were the evil empire, right?

Much like everybody wanted the Eagles to win because Kansas City would be, became the evil empire in football, right? Three, two straight Super Bowls. And, you know, it was okay.

And, and the refs were favoring them. And, you know, Microsoft's, Microsoft's gotten a bad rap, but look at what they've done. Look at what they've done.

No matter, I mean, from the PC to the office apps to the cloud, you know, when Microsoft puts, its, when Microsoft puts its mind to something, I tell you, there's, there's no other company out there that does it. Two things I want to cite, and then Tracy, I know you wanna say something. First of all, I live, or our office is here in, uh, tech Stronger in Boca Raton, Florida.

There wouldn't be a Boca Raton, Florida as we know it, had it not been for Microsoft. You know, IBM came down here and they built the PC here. Don Estridge had the, the IBM team that built the pc.

It was down here, right in Boca Raton, Florida, the original Silicon something. Um, but, but the I-B-M-P-C was nothing until it had an operating system. And some young haired college dropout kid came down here and signed a deal here.

The, the building is still there, the room he signed it in is there, if you are there, you could do a press conference in that room. He signed a licensing deal with IBM for something called dos Disc Operating System. And nothing's ever been the same, right?

Nothing's, that was the start of the modern pc. And you know, you look at Windows and how they deal, you know, they, they dealt with IBM we're gonna co-develop OS two at the same time. They were developing Windows to replace it and, and everything.

And anything since that, they were, I mean, they, they just executed. I remember when I started my first hosting company, we hosted on Sun Ultras, spark Machines. I'm sure a lot of you out here, remember the Ultras Spark, Solaris, and we were using the Netscape web server software.

I think it was actually the stats that wasn't free. The browser was free. And Microsoft came out.

51? 51. And they came, I, my office was with downtown New York, John Street, Silicon Alley, as we called it.

And, um, they, they made another reception like you're talking about. And I went down there, they invited us 'cause we were a hosting company and they wanted us to switch. They were putting the hard press, you know, how Microsoft was.

And they were arrogant. 51 with, uh, IIS Internet information server. And I said, guys, we looked at it.

It's, it's baby s**t. It's baby stuff compared to Soliris and, and, and Netscape and one, and the options I have there. I said, even if you're giving it to me for free, and they were giving it to me for free back, then I wouldn't use it.

And the guy looked at me, I, I figured his name, but he looked at me, we were in a bar in downtown, and he said, Alan, I'm gonna tell you something. We're Microsoft. It may not be as good as Netscape is right now.

And then team may not be good as Solaris, but it's, it's only our first iteration. Give us three iterations in the world will standardize on this. And if you don't, you'll be left behind.

And I laughed, and I let him buy me another drink. They're always good at buying drinks though too, Mike, you know that. Um, and you know what, three iterations later, NT four oh and, and on, i, IS became the dominant, the dominant web server.

And, and n nt, you know, Solaris Linux killed all the Unixes and, and it became Linux or Windows. Those were your choices. Uh, so that, you know, just reminiscing a little, the the Funny thing is, if you look at Edger, there's more instances of Linux running in there.

And there Windows is the right Now. So where Steve Balmer's not happy. No, That's not how they captured the market.

I, I remember when I first, I, my first PC I bought Gateway computers, it came in a big box. It, it looked like a cow. Oh, black, A white cow box.

Sure Loved it. I kept that box for a long time. Mm-hmm.

Love it. And I kept the PC actually. And you know what I installed on it initially.

What? It's a little piece of software called Quarter Deck. I remember Quarter Deck.

That's what I, that's what I installed first. And it was really helpful. Um, I, but I would excuse it fairly quickly.

'cause I was all about learning the command line. I was all about work, learning dos as much as I could. Mm-hmm.

So when, um, windows became affordable and started becoming the standard on PCs that were being shipped to people's homes, then all these young people, they hadn't even gotten into computers yet. I was actually at work developing on a Sun system and using Sun Tools. Um, so, uh, but the PC was outside of the realm of a, a corporate office.

But as soon as they, they created a massive industry of selling PCs. Remember how big Gateway used to be? And all of them were running Windows.

So adoption, For that matter, Adoption was their secret weapon. They taught us all to use Windows. So what was happening is young people were going into the workforce that had been using Windows.

They wanted to use Windows. They didn't wanna use Sun. They didn't wanna, they didn't wanna use Solaris, they didn't wanna use Quarter Deck.

They didn't, you know, there was, there was several, several different options. The two choices that they wanted were either they got an Apple for Christmas, or they got a PC for Christmas, and that's where they were playing their games. That's what they, they were starting to, to program on.

And it actually started changing the culture in general around women in tech at the same time, because it wasn't little girls who were getting Apple computers or, or, or PCs. It was little boys. So that, that created and changed the industry in a really, really drastic way, is selling it and getting it into the hands of the consumer, not just businesses.

So by the time those people wanted to go to work, they were not gonna be, they wanted PCs. And that's how that, and that's, I believe that's how they changed the industry. It made a huge difference for me.

I was nos two big for a very long time. So I didn't have, I, I had OS two running on. I'm, I'm a machine for Ever.

I, I, I was in OS two years or two for a long time, And I did a lot of work for IBM and I still swear it was better than Windows. It was probably, but they didn't take it. They did not take it to the consumer, No.

Mm-hmm. Well, they did, but by then it was all over, like when war came Out, oh, one time I was, I was, yeah, I was walking through an airport and I saw a think pad with windows running on it and an ad my had all the s**t fed right there. I just like, what doing OS two, why are you putting, you know, an ad for a ThinkPad with Windows running on it?

And I, that was the moment I realized OS two had lost. Mm-hmm. As I look back in time, and I remember all the lawsuits about Microsoft's dominance and how much that took up our time, I wonder This technology in itself just prevent any one company from becoming all that dominant in the first place.

And maybe this isn't something we need to worry about from a legal point of view, it's just that, you know, I don't think Microsoft saw Linux and Amazon coming and the world shifted and now, you know, they're, they're a number two in a cloud space rather than a number one. And they're far from dominant. And I just wonder, you know, as we look forward to ai, is that gonna play out again and again?

And maybe, you know, we as consumers and users of tech, we're just going to make that shift with our wallets rather than worrying about, per se, anybody being one dominant soul. But you know what, they were late to the internet, right? They were late to the internet.

I still remember having to install TCP IP as a separate, uh, stack to be able to even get on the internet on a Windows machine. They were late to the internet, but yet they overcame it. They were late to the cloud for sure.

They missed the cloud for a large part. But yet here they are at number two, right? They were late to security, man, all my friends in security, we used to hate Microsoft.

It was, there was no security. They started trustworthy computing and hired some of the best security people in the world. And when relatively five, three to five years, they became security.

They changed security. We all used to pay for av, right? Then they made Windows Defender free.

And that changed that market, changed that market. They have disrupted markets time and time again. Not necessarily being the first to the market, but disrupting the market, nevertheless owning it.

So I, I give them all the credit in the world, they're far from perfect. They've been arrogant over the years, God knows. But they, you, you gotta give credit where credit's due, they change the world.

Yeah. And their argument has always been that, you know, putting things into the OS or at the application layer that are features of other things, you know, they would say that AV wasn't a market. They would say that it's a capability that needs to be a core component that's accessible to everybody.

And therefore our guard God-given right to innovation is that we can put new capabilities into the operating system. And that's what we're doing to benefit end users. And you know, if three or four companies get run over in the process, well that's just called the nature of the game.

So I think, you know, what we keep defining as markets has always been ill-defined to me, and, you know, where, where one piece of software sits in a stack versus another changes over time. Mm-hmm. Agreed.

Agreed. Um, let me ask Sona, we haven't heard from you, so I'm gonna ask you a question if it's okay. We've been looking back at the last 50 years.

What do you think about Microsoft in the next 50 years? Will there be a 100th celebration? Um, I certainly think there would be.

Um, I remember reading this article, unwired. Um, so back in 2010 when deep learning had just emerged into the same, Microsoft was still mostly occupied with Windows and Office, but when SAT became the CEO and appointed his first AI scientist with the mission to embed AI across the product line, uh, and then they had the $1 billion open AI partnership. And then things just started to turn around.

And it, uh, within less than two years, I think they became a $3 trillion company. Uh, so really, uh, it hasn't been so long come to think of it that, uh, Microsoft has started on this, uh, AI journey and uh, now it's full speed ahead. So I'm hopeful.

I think that yes, definitely there is going to be a hundredth year celebration for Microsoft. 'cause it is really one of those mainstay companies. We can't think of computers without companies like IBM and Microsoft.

And I know Intel has totally gone up the rails. Uh, but I, hopefully Microsoft will see, uh, for another fif uh, for another five decades for sure. People, let's Remember the IIBM is over a hundred years old, So Yes they are.

Mm-hmm. There's a lot of people who asking questions about whether open AI will do to Microsoft, what Microsoft did. IBM is that possible?

Very possible. I think it's also possible that open AI points are being owned by Microsoft. Yep.

Yeah. Looking forward to that hostile takeover of Microsoft by Tesla. Is that where you're going with that One?

Well, no. So now I hear that Elon says his group will withdraw the offer if open AI promises to remain, uh, not-for-profit, which they will, because I think Altman wants to spin chat GPT out as the, as the for-profit company. But you know, as, as with most things, when you peel away the smoke and mirrors, who knows what's real.

I think that we, um, a one person we're forgetting in this conversation is Bill Gates himself. He has, um, demonstrated a unique quality in leadership in this field. Even after he left the company, we continued to look up to him for new ideas.

Even if it wasn't in computer science, maybe it wasn't, you know, biotech. He, he has acted in a, in a different way from the Jeff Bezos and the Elon Musk. He really has.

And I think that there's a, um, there's a karma he's created for himself that part of the reason why Microsoft has been so popular is because so many technologists like myself, who has been around for quite some time and, and gave up OS two and started embracing my, the Microsoft platform is because we looked up to, to Bill Gates himself. I wasn't a fan of Paul Allen at all, but I really was a fan of, of Bill Gates, and he represented Microsoft to me. You know, there was that movie about jobs and Gates and I forgot the name of the movie.

It's, it's an older movie now, you know, but in many ways how that defined, you know, the, the PC era, but also the modern tech era, right? I mean, you could have Hewlett and Packard working in their garages and the classic Seller valley and of course IBM and Cisco. But you know, when I think of Bill Gates, I think of Steve Jobs and, and when I think of Steve Jobs, I think of Bill Gates.

Very different people. Yes. Very different personalities.

Um, but you know, the impact that they've had in, in their companies, endure. They're both sdi you mentioned $3 trillion, right? They're both $3 trillion companies or, or more.

So amazing, amazing stuff. But we think About, when we think about philanthropy though, we, we think about Building Yeah. You know, well, Steve Jobs wi, unfortunately, Steve Jobs passed away way too young.

But his wife does a lot of of philanthropy. Yes, she does. Yes.

I was gonna say, so Belinda And so was the yes. But then again, so does Jeff Bezos first wife, right? So does a lesson there somewhere too.

Happy Valentine's Day. Let's take a break here on Text Drawing Gang, and we'll come back to talk about our next topic. Discover Textron Group, the epicenter of tech innovation.

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Hey folks, we're back and we're gonna move on to cloud security. There's been a lot of shifts in movements, and frankly, I'm not entirely sure exactly how this is all gonna play out, but it started last week with Palo Alto Networks launching Cortex Cloud, which they combined with their prisa or Prism Prisma, that's Prisma, um, CAPP platform. And synap was this category that emerged in recent years.

It stands for Cloud Native Application Protection Platform, coined by Gartner, as I recall. Um, and the idea was that there was gonna be this separate platform apart from the existing cloud security platforms that people would deploy. And now Palo Alto network seems to be saying, well, maybe it is all just one integrated platform.

And one thing with cloud security, at the same time last week, checkpoint and Wiz got together and announced a partnership. And Checkpoint is still pretty dominant in the on-premises world. And Wiz is one of probably the leader at this point of synap.

Um, Alan, your take here, what's going on? Is this Synap space gonna just kind of hold about back into what Palo Alto network now calls platformization? Or is there still all these separate categories?

So Mike, I think it was General Douglass MacArthur who said, old software never dies. It just fades away. Or maybe it wasn't software, but, um, old software never dies.

It just doesn't, it, it gets platformized. It gets, it goes into the woodwork, so to speak. So I, you know, this whole cnap thing, not that cnap, what it did isn't important and it wasn't vital and it wasn't a good thing.

But have, raise your hand if you've had enough of Gartner creating acronyms for what it is we do, right? I, I live, this was part of my life, right? You too bad.

Mitchell's not on today. When we came out with our, we didn't call it NAN network Access Control product, we called it something else, but of course, Gartner decided that category was n they decided this one was C. They have a new one now for continuous security.

Something monitoring CS or something. I, I've had enough of their acronyms, quite frankly. However, You don't believe in mythical quadrants, I'm suppressed.

No. And, and that, that's a whole nother, you know, wave. But anyway, um, when, when it comes to Cmap specifically, look, it was always cloud security.

You know, they kind of threw me for a loop when they said the cloud native, because I started thinking Kubernetes and everything. But the fact of the matter is, CA wasn't necessarily as cloud native, as cloud native, as would the way I think of Cloud Native. Hmm.

It was cloud security. And then, and with a Gartner acronym in front of it, it always was. But you know, when you look at the hype cycle, and then when you look at the life cycle of security products, they all go, I said this last week, they go from products to features.

That's the way of it. They go from products to features. And that's what's happened here with Cena.

It went from a product to a feature now specifically for Palo Alto. Palo Alto's a funny bird, right? Palo Alto made their bones.

Well, you were dating cheerleaders. No. Palo Alto made their bones as a next generation firewall, right?

That's what we, that's what Palo Alto is, was, you know, and then they made some smart plays in, in, uh, actually in cloud Native Security, right? And in cloud security. And they spun up the Prisma cloud security, and then they made some more acquisitions.

Cortex being another one. And, you know, I think all along, this is not new. They've just given a new name, but they've been building a cloud security platform forever.

You don't need three different cloud security platforms. Just 'cause Gartner gave him an acronym. So this is a, a logical step.

And, and look, quite frankly, the firewall, the next gen firewall business ain't exactly what it used to be with all of this cloud stuff. They, they had to make a significant bet on the cloud. And I think they've consolidated their bet.

You know, they put all their wood now behind one arrow and and that's what they're going to market with. That's what they'll tell you. I think part of, Part of the conversation too is that customers are sick of buying multiple things and they just wanna buy one Cloud security.

They want a cloud security, right? Right. So if that's the case, you know, what's your speculation on, does the Wizz and checkpoint just not go far enough and they need to merch?

Well, I think in retrospect, we should have taken the last offer they had on the table. Right? Was it, was it Google?

Yep. It was crazy money. They should have taken the money.

You know, I learned this, a guy named Len Faser, who I sold my first company to along with Brad Feld, told me, once you got an offer on the table, if someone's willing to reach in their pocket and write a check and give you money, take the money. Right? You know, assuming it's not ridiculously low, um, they should have taken the money.

I don't know if Checkpoint is in a position to actually buy with. I think it might at this point be a merger of equals when you look at, uh, when you look at valuations and so forth. But, you know, opportunity comes and goes in technology and in startups and in companies like this.

And I wonder, uh, has Wiz mis mis its window and now they need, they, they're going to need to merge with a checkpoint or something, as I said, to, to have that broader platform versus just being a Cena. Or are they the rare bird that escapes gravity and flies high enough to become their own platform? Right.

Every once in a while, out of every 10,000 companies or whatever, you see one that escapes gravity and becomes the platform. We saw it with CrowdStrike who thought CrowdStrike was going to be what it is, right. It became, you know, uh, and it maybe Wiz is one of those, but I, you know, I hope the odds are forever in their favor.

I don't know, Tracy, should You always take the money? You know, I've walked away from money before, and sometimes I think back and say, was that the right thing? Um, but when I look at what happened after I stepped away and said, it's not all about the money.

We made more money in the long run. Kind of stretched it out. Um, and it, uh, provided us, uh, a little more freedom to do what we wanted to do with the product.

So I think from, you know, a purely, um, number standpoint, probably take the money and run, but we don't, I don't know where these, I it is hard to see where these products are go, are going and how much freedom that they want to, uh, have in choosing what they're gonna do. Um, you know, if you think about, um, checkpoint, you know, the, some of the complaints I I hear around Checkpoint is that it's kind of heavy. Um, it's got a lot of performance overhead.

Uh, it just is, um, it's, it's not agentless, right? I talk about that a lot. And Wiz is so, you know, I I think that they ha they have a dream that they're trying to follow.

And maybe that's why they didn't take the money when they, uh, when it was offered. And I think there's more work to do in this area. I really do.

So, um, I'm, I'm hoping Wiz continues with its work. Palo Alto is not my friend. I don't like them anymore for reasons we wanna go into.

But there's so much to be done in this area, particularly around, uh, you know, container scanning and security. If we're gonna do that in production, how do we do that? How do we do it safe?

Uh, there's just, there's just more to do in this area. Kubernetes is complex and we, we need these kind of tools to build some guardrails around them. And that's what these, these, these cloud native tools do.

So I'm, you know, I'm kind of, I'm pushing for, I'm hoping that Wiz takes it a little farther. Yeah. So along the, one of the things we didn't talk about is the impact AI is having on this particular space.

'cause part of the issue I think is gonna be, I need to aggregate all the data to train the models. And if all the data is sitting in all these different repositories, I really can't have seven or eight different products that I'm trying to organize. I need to kind of put that into some sort of cohesive place.

So is it your impression here that maybe AI is forcing all this convergence and consolidation around a platform? It is, it is definitely one of the reasons. And with Corex Cloud, it's really another example of the obsession over single pane of glass experience everything, security or wherever it is, all in one console.

The beauty of it is that, uh, it saves users from having to deal with 10 different tools, a whole box of it, and maintain oversight of everything from just one solution. And, uh, at the backend with this product, Palo Alto is also using the data to train its AI models that powers its, um, uh, secure portfolio. So it's, uh, also a good way to consolidate their sprawling portfolio, or we're often competing products, hard sales for each other.

So I think definitely AI is a big part of it, but they also, it also serves the interest of the companies and also in some way meet the customer expectations of consolidating their whole entire toolbox. Fair enough. You know, we need to close out on this block, but I'll also say this Checkpoint is a firewall company too, and they've moved to Endpoint and in a lot of big places.

But like Palo, they're, they're searching for the, for the next anchor there, right? For the next thing to really build around. So it'll be interesting.

It, it, you know, we can go on all day, is innovation, that insecurity, where is the innovation coming from ai? Maybe you're watching Texture again. All right, folks, we're back and we're talking about, well, AI and copyright, again, there's been some movement in this space with Thomson Reuters winning a, uh, at least the first round of a lawsuit.

They're probably gonna be an appeal. But the judge rule that you cannot take their data to go train an AI model without their permission. And this issue is at the heart of any number of lawsuits that are still floating around out there.

And there's even now a bill floating around the state of California, which says that if someone takes your data to train an AI model and is copyrighted, you need to be alerted to that fact. And then you can decide what you want to do after that. But right now, a lot of folks didn't even know their data was being taken to train models.

And some folks are even saying that all the data's already been taken. So the issue is kind of, you know, how much are we gonna compensate for? 'cause the AI guys are saying, we don't have any more data.

We need to go create some more. So, so Salon, what's your take on what's going on here? We have a couple stories on AI about this, but where does this all end?

Um, so generative AI's IP infringement issue is a real problem. Um, there are trademark materials all over the internet. There is unlicensed content and training data, and often, uh, no direct references to the copyrighted works.

Um, and AI apps are always using original works of creators without license. And there is, as you mentioned, a marriage of lawsuit around the use of unauthorized content. Now as soft.

Now, there is no AI legislation like that is, uh, nationwide, that applies to every state where, uh, it prevents, uh, uh, users, uh, companies from using, um, any data that they, that is available on the internet. But, uh, there's this proposed bill, like you said, uh, uh, that is in California that, uh, would require generative AI developers to at least inform the copyrighted copyright owners, uh, when their data is used for training. So I think that eventually down the road, at some point, companies will, uh, yeah, the, the lawmakers, it is definitely gaining the tension of the lawmakers, even though there is no, uh, uh, concrete, uh, legislation yet.

But I feel like somewhere down the road, there will be something, uh, that would block, uh, companies from randomly accessing, uh, licensed data for their training. Uh, but, uh, I don't see it happening anytime soon. So maybe in the future, but, uh, until then, we are gonna have to deal with this, it looks like.

Mm-hmm. I feel, I like, this is a bold calculation where they're basically trying to figure out how much money can they make, and then if there's a lawsuit and they lose money on the lawsuit, they still made more money than they had to pay out on the lawsuit. So are we just kind of gambling here on a certain level with all this stuff?

I, I, I don't know if it's gambling, right? Well, you want, wait, if you're Thomson Reuters or The Times, or The Post or, or any individual tech strong, any individual content publisher, the lawsuit, its a gamble and all of that thing. But there's a bigger principle at play here.

There's a bigger principle at play here, and that is, what is the future of copyright? What is the future of IP ownership? Right?

Because if we can't enforce it here, you know, and in law we, there's a, there's a theory of what we call specific performance, which means you can't pay me enough money to truly compensate me for the damages I've I've incurred. I need you to specifically perform. And it may be that it's not about the money and the gambling here, it as a gamble here, it's about a specific performance going forward that this is how things get done or not, how things get done.

And I think that's what this fight is about. Forget Thomson Reuters for a second. Forget open AI or, or any of these individual brands, if you will.

The, the bigger issue, and it applies, especially applies when we, you know, look at China and some of the other parts of the world. We saw the EU saying they're gonna back off some of the copyright ip, uh, regulations with AI that they were contemplating. How far are we backing off?

Right. How I is I, is the, i the concept of copyright and IP going to survive this? Well, I would think if you asked, uh, open AI about deep seek and the distillation that they're, uh, claiming that they did, right?

Isn't this kind of a, I don't know, hypocritical for them to Be? Yeah. Well, Yeah.

It's, you know, don't steal my data, but let me Yeah, it is, it is. So you, you would think that it, it has to go to the courts. There's gotta be better ways to do this.

If copyright notices have to be put out, if people have to pay for, uh, data, then so be it. Um, but, But Doesn't as in order to move forward, we have to, we have to sort it out. But, but What I'm trying to say are the courts subject to the same political pressures that stopped the EU dead in its tracks here?

We already have a vice president and administration that stands up and says, the court can't tell the executive, uh, the, you know, the executive branch what to do. Right? They're questioning the power of the courts.

And, you know, if you are gonna live in an authoritarian, authoritarian or whatever, you know, if you're gonna live in a dictatorship, they're gonna tell you what you could do with your ai, with your copyright and your ip. And that is the bigger question. It doesn't seem like there'll be any laws, at least on a national level without any of this.

But will the states kind of fill in that gap? Well, I mean, I think it, it's a weird question to have because do we throw out GDPR? Is, does that go away?

Is the, isn't there some impact there? Everybody has tried to comply with these, you know, these privacy compliance. Um, and you know, when you build isn, kind of the same question.

When you build a system based on the rule of law, and you throw out the rule of law, this is what you got. It's called chaos. It's anarchy.

Mm-hmm. So, and it doesn't just apply to ai, it applies in a lot of places. And we're seeing it here, and I don't care.

That's, we boned for it rules the rules, laws, or laws. Not anymore, apparently. No.

We're in a new world. All right. I knew it was gonna come to that sooner or later.

Um, it's about that time. It's about that time. Sona, thank you for joining us today, Chay, as always.

Thank you, Mike. It's great seeing you. I'll see you later this week.

We are in person in New York this week. Mm-hmm. Um, for some internal editorial meetings.

Very excited. Uh, but for now, this is Alan Shimmel, on behalf of Techron and the Techron Gang, I hope you've enjoyed today's show. We're outta here.