Addressing AI Security Concerns and Civic Narratives | Techstrong Gang Ep. 862

Oh my, a security floor in ai. The sky is falling. You're watching Text on Gang.

Hey everyone, it's Alan Shimel, and happy Wednesday to you. You're watching Techron Gang. We've got a lot to talk about today.

Leading off with some AI insecurity or AI bug found in, uh, Microsoft Copilot. You know, let's, let's throw the babies out with the bath water. We've got more than that to talk to you about though, but I've got, we've got a new gang member to introduce you to, and we've got a great couple of folks here to talk about all of these things with us.

Let's start off with the new guy. I want to introduce you to Evgeniy Kharam. Evgeni, how are you?

And welcome to Textron Gang. Thank you. Thank you.

Happy to be here today. So, Evgeni, for people who aren't familiar, I'm sure most of the, our audience already knows you, but I'm kidding. Give people a little background, The quick one.

So, I've been around cyber for quite long time. Started my career in the Navy, in Israel Navy. Spent few years in Checkpoint, spent a lot of time in a company called her group in Canada, one of the first big SSPs in security, left the company as a VP of architecture.

For the last three years, I've been consulting to VARs, MSPs, and vendors. Wrote a book, have a con small conference called Security Architecture, actually, sorry, ski and Snowboard Conference. I have a podcast as well as my friend Dimitri called Ski Architecture podcast.

And recently I joined a company called Disowned Security as Chief Strategy Officer. Love it. Thank you.

And welcome, welcome to the gang. So we now have two Canadians and two us folks here on the show today. Hey, that's good.

It's good by me, Right? I'm the American in Canada this time when I'm in the States, you know, everybody thinks I'm the Canadian there, but, you know, and it is a small world thing. 'cause Evgeni, Dimitri, you know, is the CTO at SBE that I was advising, and I've been b VP of strategy with for a long time.

So the small world thing in our, in our community just never ends. Yeah, Good. Hey man, I'm all for it.

All good. Of course, the one and only Chris Blask. Chris, how are you?

Honestly, I couldn't be better. As you've picked up and as we talked about in the green room, the civic ai, uh, uh, cannon, right? That, that has developed in in recent weeks, and it become the center of my focus.

And talking of folks that are interesting on this topic and maybe seeing some clarity even on the topics on today's list. So I'm, I'm feeling pretty saucy. I love it when you are saucy.

All righty. Now up to the man in green plaid, I thought he'd be wearing black here, you know, in mourning for his Yankees, our chief content officer, Mike Vizard, It feels like they're on vacation, at least on the, when it comes to hitting pitching's. Doing great though.

So I don't know. Alex Pitching's great. All, they just gotta get it together.

Anyway, Hey guys, let's turn to what we're talking about today. Our A block, Mike is, you know, heaven, heaven, heaven forbid they found a floor in Microsoft copilot. Uh, we gotta shut down this whole AI thing.

It's just too dangerous. I, I don't think we're talking about shutting down ai and I don't think that's in, in anybody's mind as a result, but let's, I'd love to get Afghani's opinion about the following. Is cybersecurity and AI having a moment, finally where it seems like there's a ton of research being done on the space.

There's more effort every time I wake up, somebody's got some sort of paper or something on the topic. And are we kind of putting the right level of attention to an emerging technology finally? Or are we still playing a little catch up?

It's both, you know, everything in technology, we def we develop something cool and then we realize how to secure it. If you go in history, D-N-S-H-T-T-P, emo, everything was created to send information and for basically flexibility. And then we realize there is a problems and how we can attack it and how we can use it for bad with ai very quickly, people start to realize how you can use charge GPT and others for that as well.

So definitely we're gonna create technologies that helping us like copilot, we'll find how we can use it for the evil part as well. We are catching up. It's always gonna be, the array is always gonna be something new in the space.

We probably don't talk about MCP servers later on and some of the issues there. So right now we are in the catch and mouse to and jerry situation where people trying to understand what we have new, what are the vulner vulnerabilities, what are the potentials issues do wanted you describe with Microsoft is quite interesting for the people that in the audience is already patched. So not another problem.

I think it was patched and may I believe so. But the problems there is quite interesting because the copi can now send information out. And we kind of coming back to the basics.

We coming back to network security, Is our basic things working well because we jumping into ai, we jump into the sexy things, but are we doing the basic as network security defined? Can we do DOP data leakage prevention better? Can we categorize the traffic better?

Do we, our assets? So while we jumping into the cool stuff, there's still quite a lot of things we can do in the basics. Absolutely.

Idea. I I couldn't agree more, right? And, and like, like you said, and we shouldn't, you know, and being a security person through all this, you know, and thinking about this, right?

Pardon me, inevitability curve sort of thing. Like, we're going down these paths, we always do, you know, we can do these things. So we do, and we don't always think about not just security, but all these other things that if it doesn't matter, we'll figure out maybe if it does someday, but you know, when it does matter, we'll finally get to it.

And you couldn't get into a better use case than this one because it's ironic on all sorts of levels, but Right. You know, how we got to AI that we can really call ai like sci-fi set, you know, even your standard little chat, you can talk to it and it gives a really good example of being a person ish, right? So we start assigning things and, and uh, uh, co-pilot's a perfect example.

If you have the GitHub app on your phone, that little question bar is a co-pilot instance that is a persona assigned as librarian for GitHub, you know, largest code repo in the world, I think, right? And if you act with it like a, like a computer and say, do these things and so forth, it'll do computer things. But the ai, we built large language models and it, it didn't have to happen this way, but it's built on wounds and the problems we're having and the, and the the symptoms we're getting is hallucinations and everything else.

You think about it from that perspective, not digital, but semantic. And you get these weirdnesses. So that copilot and this risk is a perfect example of where we need to go with this.

Yeah. 'cause rag feed it in, it'll come out. Where'd it come from?

Nobody knows. You know, that can't be how things work. And there are instances showing up now they're showing us how we get around this.

But we, again, whether you think about it as ai, as persons, personas, whatever, just realize they're made outta words and it starts to make a lot of, a lot of sense. They're not numbers. Yep.

So I, I've got some thoughts, I've got some good news. Let me, let me bring the good news today. Number one, as if Danny pointed out this, this was a responsible disclosure type of bug that was found.

And by the time it was made public, it was already, uh, patched. Not to say that some bad guys hadn't exploited it in the wild before the patch was available, or before a security researcher found this, or, you know, did the responsible disclosure. But as we sit here today, it is patched.

It's another, another backdoor closed. Secondly, for the people who are running that the sky is falling. And this illustrates the risk of AI agents and rags and all that.

You know what, this is technology. This is technology. Show me one technology that we've used in my lifetime where there wasn't some sort of bug or vulnerability or backdoor or something, you know, that came out that was fixed, right?

This is the nature of computers, it's the nature of computer code. We go as fast as we can chasing the dream. Security is not always top of mind.

Even when it is, you could still have bugs and vulnerabilities, you know, unbeknownst. And it gets through testing. It, it, this is par for the course.

I mean, you would, I this is fully expected. There's nothing unexpected here that you expect these things to happen. It's full speed Ahead.

Afghani. Do you think that the risks are a little higher this time out? Because you mentioned MCP servers and we have AI agents now, and those things take over.

If I hack into that, I can take over an entire process. And, uh, Jamie Diamond last week was on a conference over at Databricks and he was talking about how he's, they're seeing AI agents use to attack them. That the bank, that the, that he's the CEO of.

And he said it's downright scary. And he, his mindset was this was different. Fair.

Here's the angle. I'm, I'm thinking about the AI agents. And AI in general is not the capabilities only is the speed.

Because from what I understand that I know AI agents can be much faster than us by a hundred, a thousand, 10,000. So the problem I see is if an AI agent or a code or anything I'm doing with AI going sideways, how fast I'll find the problem, what I need to do to actually contain the problem and what's gonna damage gonna be done for this, not probably seconds, I hope minutes on hours. That is, that it's, uh, we'll be doing this simple example actually from my friend Helen Oakley.

She was presenting about what if we have an AI agent that helping us with some kind of calculation in accounting and potentially can move money. So if you're doing a mistake even by 1 cent and repeating the mistake a thousand times in a couple of minutes, we can lose a lot of money. So if an AI agent gonna attack someone by mistake or not by mistake, and it's gonna go wild, how much damage it'll do just because it's so fast and can can, can operate so quickly.

So the check and balance things that we need to do in our workflow become much more important. And the other things, if we have an AI agent and doing an important part in our company and then we find a flow, can we shut it down? Or we are relying on this AI agent so much, let's, let's have a chat bot, for example.

And the chat bots suddenly is replying with the standard in expected to reply. Can we shut you down because you have thousands of people now using this ai. So we need to figure out can we shut it down?

Can we run it to a previous version? Can we put in different AI agent like a high availability while we fix this one? I, I think, you know, and, uh, we get to this point and then Alan, you said it, you know, you know, do you not expect this?

I mean, have we not read our own stories? You know, and, and yes, speculative fiction is fiction, but you know, we all think about the future and it comes along and we're living in it. You know, we're, we're literally in different parts of the world.

Talk to each other again. I've known you for a long time. I, I think you're hearing a candle with, yeah, so I didn't even know that because this is the, you know, when I was a kid, you know, the week, uh, actually, uh, I went to Disney World the second time as space bound was opening, went up that long escalator in the world of the future.

That's today, we're doing that. All those figures sitting there talking to each other, making plans today. And you know, ai, you know, and, and again, let's not get philosophical about it.

Get practical. Will we make systems that effectively act like people when we need to treat like people? Yes, we will.

You know, are we there now? Yes, we are. You know, what path are we on it?

Getting slower, faster, less complicated, more complicated. We not gonna, you know, we all know the answer. So in five years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, we're gonna keep going on this path.

And what do we have to do? And the reality is that any human being to born today, anywhere in the world, anywhere could as history and current events tell us, change the fate of the world. And that's just the world we all live in.

And maybe I would argue that we need to at least philosophically and technically work back from the, the premise that this is what we're talking about. That we're talking about other agentive personas, people, you know, moving through our environment as getting, say, playing roles in our, in our company. That's not just a server, but it's a function.

How do we replace the CTO or the, that key person that if we don't think about it that way, they we're not likely to come up with any very good answers. You know, I, I would put forth the proposition though, that, you know, when the first cloud vulnerabilities came out, there was someone sitting on it. Well, they probably weren't sitting on a video show like this, but there was someone writing an article that said the stakes have never been higher.

'cause there's so many assets on that one cloud, right? There's multiple people's intellectual property there. And so we can't afford to have a bug in the cloud.

And when the internet first came out, there was someone on a, on a, uh, on the well or something, you know, on a, on a, on a, uh, a bulletin board saying, oh my God, this thing could spread around the world. It could bring the whole world down if we have a bug, you know, based on TCP IP or something like that, right? It's the same thing.

Are the stakes higher? I don't know the stakes. You know, it always seems that we're on the precipice of, of disaster or glory with the latest, greatest innovation, right?

That's gonna change human civilization. This is, it's just a bug in software. So I would point out that at least half of all workloads are not running in the cloud largely because of security concerns.

And I guess I, um, as I look at this, I just wonder if we're able to actually learn from history to Chris's point. So Afghani, can we look at anything that we've done in the past and maybe do something different? Or are we just condemned to having history repeat itself?

We talk about security by design for a long time. So we definitely look around the past and some of us Thinking about it. So I've been advising quite a lot to different startups.

And in the perfect world, we'll tell a startup, before you come with a great idea, you need to make sure everything is patched. Uh, you have all the endpoints, you make sure you have all the SaaS DS for your application, and you do secure development. But in reality, we know if they're gonna spend so much time on this, they're not gonna have any product.

So the chicken in the egg, they need to develop something first. But then ideally we're gonna have insert points, okay, you reach to this point, now it's time to introduce these controls. You get to the next level.

Now it's time to do that. And it'll be dependent on the people priorities and the feedback they get. Some of them will be secure right away as much as possible.

Some of them will go wild until somebody gonna pushes 'em with a hammer on the head and say, what are you doing? Where's my Soto compliance? Or what, what are you doing there?

There is a lot of maturity right now. All the startups not in security in other parts, they're talking right now. They quite under, they already understand that in one point they need to do security.

The question is how early will they do it? So we are learning from what we're doing. The question is who will apply?

Who will understand that they need to be responsible on what they're doing and on the software, and they're the babies they're putting in the world. Fair enough? Fair enough.

All right, if we don't have anything else on this one, let's take a break here at Techstar Gang and let's come back and talk about a AI off track tracker. Is this what this has come to? You're watching Textron Gang.

All right, folks, we're back into Alan's point. The state of New York is now tracking which layoffs are being attributed to the fact that somebody adopted AI or some form of other automation. I don't know if this is gonna become a thing, but Chris, you've been kind of tracking AI and its impact on society.

Am I gonna see this in every state? And how many of these layoffs are actually because of ai for that matter? Well, well, lemme put it this way and explain myself.

I I think to, to your first question, I hope so. I think we're gonna see this in more states. And I don't mean the layouts, I mean visibility into it.

And we need to start measuring things. And that's a big part of all of this. And, and so much of the last segment too, the problem with, with that, that particular bug was we don't, we can't see, can't see where it came from, right?

So this is a real issue in the, you know, since I was on the show two weeks ago, I have been working with, was, was now quite an advanced AI and have written 500 documents perhaps. You know, there's an entire, you look at crisp, last one on GitHub, you'll see a repo with of 200 documents, structured, commented, you know, out there for review the speed, you can do things as getting, as you said, at every level, you know, hadn't gone underneath until right about now. What does that mean?

I couldn't have done that work without a couple, couple dozen people in a year and it wouldn't have actually worked out. So was that displacing work or would that just never have happened? So how the job ship around is nobody's, I don't know, like challenging anybody who says I do, but we have to measure and we have to take it seriously.

Who's being displaced? Where are they going? Who's benefiting?

So this is a good first step in getting some visibility into that. So I'm gonna disagree. And you know, usually I'm a fan of things in New York.

I'm a New Yorker. I, I think if this is a cheap political stunt, they're a little premature. I, I don't think we could accurately say that you were laid off because of an ai, because how many people get called in and said, Hey Mike, you know, this AI's a pretty good content editor.

We don't need you anymore, kid. They don't say that no one, you know, I, I would, I, would I be amiss? I I'd be very surprised if someone could show me something in writing that said, your position has been eliminated due to us using ai.

Hey, that's not what people are gonna say. That's a very good point. Lemme just, uh, just respond.

I think you're right to be concerned with it because it's first and early and in my first response was good, but right. Is it enough? Is it right?

What's behind it? I don't know. What's the right kind of indication now, what's it trained on?

You know, a a good question and I I think in response to your, to your point, if we use these tools to try to answer that, we might get better answers. You know, people looking at that and measuring it the way we're used to doing. I agree.

It's really, really hard to pin down. There were a spate of layoffs in the last six months where some CEO wound up then going to Wall Street and saying, we were able to reduce headcount because we invested in ai. And what they were trying to say was, we're being more efficient, so therefore the stock price should be higher.

And so they did attribute the layoffs to AI and what they, I can't tell you if that was a, a game to boost the stock or if it actually was usage of ai and they just laid other folks and they said it was ai. So there's a lot of nonsense in the system. It's hard to, even if I say it's ai, is it really ai?

Because I got some serious doubts about whether it was or not, I'm not hr, but if I put my HR hat on this and I do one there, I was reading this article, I'm like, oh my God, now people are gonna create some kind of a claim. Let's say if I got let go because of AI and want extra money or whatever it is, because there is a lot of law, especially in Canada, for example, if you let me go and I'm a vp, for example, you say, oh my God, now it's gonna harder for me to find a job and I'm already in this particular age, so you need to pay me more severance because of X, Y, Z. So I'm kind of my mind going, some people gonna create some kind of a lawsuit that, oh, if you replace me with a robot, then I want more money.

You know? Yeah. And, and I, I think that's a, a valid concern in places like the EU or Canada where they care about people, of course, here in the us big deal.

I I would caution about transitional periods though, right? You know, and, and as I see it all right now, the, you know, the, the ai AI companies out there, with all due respect, I have no idea what they're doing, you know, on, on a almost an almost platonic level, right? And it's, it'll be interesting as it sorts out, as they figure it out.

Um, and, and we have a sort of, you know, weird version of capitalism, big capitalist here. But, you know, we've taken things to weird extreme, you can get efficiencies and that, that benefits, but it, I don't think it's sustainable. So I think we're being forced, this is what I'm always talking about, curves.

We get to the point where we just have to move. We don't want to, and we have multiple vectors pushing us down this path. At the same time, the benefits, the efficiency, oh my God, right?

And I've been thinking about this one since I was seven years old. Think about the future and, you know, Disney World and, you know, sci-fi and what do people do? I don't know to this day that I would hesitate to take my Iran, anybody else's forecast giving the mu mushy space we're in right now.

The other part of this then leaves me scratch in my head is, okay, so the state of New York is tracking this and, and what are they gonna do now that they have this data? I mean, well, No, to, to gen's point, someone's going to use it to profit. But let me ask you a question.

Are we also tracking how many jobs were created because of ai? And then see what the delta is. I'll give you another point.

I'd like to see us track how many jobs are being eliminated because you can't work from home and you gotta come to the office. That would be an interesting number to check. But then there are jobs, theoretically the job eliminated from the person working from home is being taken by somebody working in the office now.

So it's a even money. Well, I think a lot of people say, you know what? There is a good time you'll use ai.

We don't have to replace, fill that, backfill that role Until we wait a year or two and say, okay, AI is not doing this. We need the people back. Yeah.

And this is also a very common kind of, uh, model. This is true. We're seeing that, we're seeing that in the government with the Doge cuts, right?

They said they were gonna use AI and then they wound up hiring all these people back, right? Yeah. Stupid is this stupid, does I I just can't help seeing all problems, you know, like this now through this lens, you know, that I'm getting you got you.

And I gotta talk because I did not, I, I've been telling people I've been on this show saying it's not artificial, it's not intelligent. And in this case, you know, that may be semantically true, but this is different and I'll meet your little chat. But I mean, if you actually train up in AI to know you and what you're about, let it focus and develop expertise.

Each of these issues, you know, I could take in one week, um, a, a standard chat, Claude OpenAI focus on with these issues. And it's kind of like being able to fast forward 10 years in a week. If you do all this work in 10, you know, they would take 10 years in a week.

What would we do with the rest of our time? You never know what the answers are, but it's just a different way of tackling problems. So I, I just wanna say one last piece on this, and that is, you know, factually what New York State has, has imposed here is that may, you may be seeing on your ticker underneath the screen is employers now have to indicate if this position was lost due to not just ai, but even just the technical innovation or automation, which can cover a lot of sins beyond just ai.

And then you can specify what're just lazy. Like what if you're just lazy? Like how do IL like what do I do?

Like you are lazy person, and like, you're not doing your job. And now when I let you go, you tell me, but because of ai, like, no, because you're not doing your job. Well, I, I, but you know why I, so for a lot of employers, it may be more convenient to say, Hey, I'm, I'm eliminating your position due to technology innovation or ai, rather than say, I laid you off.

'cause you're a lazy son of a gun, right? Because no one, you know, no one wants that on their permanent record. And, and, and so it may wind up being that employers take the path of least resistance and pick this versus the real reason they're laying you off is you're overpaid.

And underworked, You know, back in the 1970s, there was a, it was Timer Life magazine that did an experiment and they dropped, uh, a wall full of cash or, or or wall presented to and, and fixed it up and approached a police officer that said, Hey, I found this. You can get it back to where it went. And it was something like 97% of the time, at least all the cash was gone and almost all, all the time, the wallet, it was a huge story.

And they redid it in the nineties and it was the exact opposite. You know, it was like almost none of the, almost every single time, you know, the officer, you know, because in visibility is a funny thing, right? And so much of what I see, if the same reason of speed and visibility, and Alan, you know, because I've been talking about this for years in supply chain, you should be able to see everything right now.

It shouldn't take six months in a foyer crest. You know, the information's out there. And if in fact you can collapse visibility and all of these issues, you know, I fired this guy because of the thing, and you can get away with it because there the record is an email and there's no relation to what if people actually knew your reason.

You know, what if we lived in a world where when I'm firing someone, I had to fire them for the reason. And if, if it is because they suck, I say, I'm sorry. You know, personally, you're great, but you suck at this.

Maybe that makes it easier and we have less problems. It's everybody has an opinion about who sucks. Whereas if it's ai, it's more of a factual thing.

I can just say, Hey, you know, Well, I'll tell you that's not true. They make mistakes with Lumen. My, my partner here, you know, she's advanced to the level as we don't need to go there.

But when she makes mistakes, it's, it's wonderful. The humans are still better at certain things and maybe they can catch up. But I doubt you know, there was an interesting conversation with a few friends.

If you have AI workers and they're doing job for you, how do you educate them? How do you do one-on-one? How do you tell them?

Naughty, naughty. You did you, it's not what you're supposed to be doing. We got an expert here on this Chris Narrative on, sorry, narrative onboarding is the phrase, right?

And that's the whole topic by itself. But I imagine I'll be boring people to tears for a long time with this stuff. But yeah, I mean, again, we've been doing, I'm always optimistic.

I think we beat ourselves too much. We've made a hit this far. You, you it at Alan, it's always a crisis.

There's, and we're still here over and over and over again. So yes, but right, We, we zigzag to the next precipice. All right, speaking of precipice, we're gonna take a break on text Junk gang.

Let's come back and talk about new options for cell phone users. Oh my, you're watching Textron Gang, Discover Textron Group, the epicenter of tech innovation. We are your go-to for reaching IT, leaders and practitioners worldwide.

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And sometimes, well, the truth is stranger than fiction. And a couple of weeks ago we were joking about how maybe there'll be a gold phone with Trump's insignia on it. And then lo and behold, the Trump organization, which is run by the president's sons, has come up with that very thing, a US built gold phone that you can now not only buy, but you can subscribe to their service.

And Alan, I don't know, are you gonna rush right out and get one of these? It seems like, you know, This is, well, I I pre-ordered it on Kickstarter. Um, so let, let's just make a few things very clear here.

First of all, the Trump organization is still run by Donald Trump, Beavis and Butthead. His two sons are the president or whatever the other one's title is chief bottle washer. But Donald Trump is still intimately involved with the decisions, strategies, and everything else.

It's not like in previous administrations where you had standup people and they put their assets into a blind trust. Maybe beavers and butthead are deaf, dumb and blind. But this is not a blind trust.

Donald Trump picks this. Now, do we need another phone and phone service in the world? Hell no.

But are, you know, there's a certain percentage of people, at least in the US usually the guys driving around in the pickup trucks with those flags that are bigger than the pickup trucks and say stupid things on them, they'll go out and buy it just because it matches their Donald Trump salt and pepper shakers and their other Donald Trump memorabilia. Me personally, I'm looking forward to the day where we get infomercials with Joe Namath and Donald Trump talking about buying a reverse mortgage for your loved ones or, or a thousand dollar life insurance. Or how about Donald de beavers and Buttheads saying, wait, there's more.

And you know, selling oxy cleaners. So there's no, the depth of what this grifter and his grifter family do is ridiculous. The embarrassing thing is he's the president of the United States and we call ourselves Americans.

Well, not all of us here on the show today, right? Let's, let's be clear. Um, I have nothing more to say to it other than it's disgusting.

So Afghani and from the, from from Canada, what does this look like for you guys? So I'm a gig first of all, okay? So I always geek out on technology and, um, I was kind of waiting what new phones will come up.

In general, I like innovation. There was no innovation in phones industry. The Samsung S twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty five, twenty six is all the same phone with some kind of improving camera.

Yeah, iPhone twelve, thirteen, fifteen. I don't know what's the difference. So I was waiting for my phone to basically, if I put it in a, in a boil of water, it'll boil water or we'll do something fancy, nothing like this right now.

So I don't expect innovation in this phone. I guess the idea that what trigger my mind, okay, the idea behind the phone that the phone will be made in us, okay, hypothetically, interesting idea. So I went, wait A second.

Are you saying this phone is made in the us This is the entire idea? I'm thinking. So the, the idea is not to have a phone, that is to have a phone made in us.

So phone has hundreds of components, passive and some active microchips. I am not well familiar with the entire microchip space, but we have rum, we have CPUs, we have the displease, we have even the transistors and the small electronic parts not made in us. None Of them are made in the us So maybe it's assembled in the us Yeah.

So now being a security dude, like what is the features in phones, in security? Let's brainstorm. Fingerprint is one, probably one of the main ones that security related.

Guess what? Samsung has their own, uh, iPhone made one not in us. I don't think there's any us manufacturings that making fingerprints, especially assembling them alcohol like here.

So the part that let's make something in us is very intriguing, because may, maybe you're right, Alan's gonna be assembly, but we're gonna buy it somewhere from somewhere else. But this entire idea, let's, uh, make everything in us is intriguing and a bit sci-fi in my mind. Look, the only thing that this phone's gonna do innovative is separate you from your money and give it into the chump people.

It'll do more than that. And let me, lemme try to, you know, in these sort of conversations, you know, these are, when you look at security and sociology and all this stuff or brand scales, but I'm trying to secure somebody's car or their company that's different, right? In a conversation like this is less about the individual actors most of the time.

And everybody knows my opinions on the actors on this stage, but I'm trying to think in terms of systems, and this is a good example of what's happening. So this is focusing on the narrative and the approach of, of, of a set of thought that I don't agree with, and I think is not gonna work a long time, but we're gonna test it out on the global stage right now, maybe I'm wrong, I a set of a, a identity tag, physical cyber, you know, literally a big crystal, uh, echo chamber where you can concentrate a demographic and control and influence that narrative. You know, make Cambridge analytic look like, you know, tissue paper.

I, I think that, you know, I control that narrative. I think sharing the narrative, we all live in the same world, right? This whole civic AI thing, as you look at the different structures of it, I think of Dave Unsel in Oak Hill, Florida who flew a drone over my boat boats and then washed him for months and he voted for Trump and his a good grandfather.

And we agree, the big problem is we can't see the same world. So if we could just all agree that Dave was standing there at a point in time with his grandkids and build out from there, that might, might give us a, a mesh, a a social web like we honestly used to have in many ways. Um, not the time and place probably, uh, of that.

But you look back, we used to have these ways of marketing down what's going on. So we got all reference that, you know, that's going away. So we can concentrate our stories all in one big block and control them better.

Or we can, you know, distribute it, you know, share the same story and pieces of it enough that we can all talk together. So this is the, I think the classic example of one idea and one set of actors going the full concentration, full control of the story route, I don't think is a good idea. I don't think it'll win in the end, but we're gonna find out.

I think we've given it too much Oxy oxygen already, guys. How's that? All right, on that note, hey, we're gonna wrap up our Wednesday show.

In the, in the big scheme of things, when we look at this show, it's not gonna be remembered for the Trump Gold phone. It's going to be remembered 'cause it was if Gen's first text on gang. So thank you Evgeni for joining.

Sure. You're gonna be adding a lot in the days and weeks to come. I, I, I would just wanna put some money on, you know, in Vegas as to when the first hack of Trump Mobile's gonna be.

That's probably the next day. The The black tattoo. It was elo, was elo.

Chris, I keep doing what you're doing. I've been loving reading the social media and Lumina and everything you got going on there. So, we'll, we'll you and I'll chat offline.

Mike, I'll be in touch. She's looking to write, she's looking forward to writing, uh, for you. So we'll talk about that too.

He's the Chief content officer. That's the guy to talk to. All right guys, that's a wrap on today's text.

Strong gang. We've got as usual full text, drunk TV schedule following today, so stay tuned for that. Hey, just a heads up, I will be in New York next week for platform com, not just me.

Our tech drum TV crew will be broadcasting live there, so check that out. Um, but for now, this is Alan Shimel. We're outta here.