The Business of IT: What to Expect | Predict 2024

Hello everyone. I'm Alan Shimmel, CEO, founder of Techron Group, and welcome to our Predict 2024 virtual event. You know, one, we have a a day full of amazing sessions, but I wanted to kick off with this session because the gentleman I'm gonna introduce you to is someone I personally, uh, have learned a lot from and respect, and, uh, I think he has a lot to share that's gonna be very relevant to you.

I'd like to introduce you to Byron Nicoletti. Byron is the CEO founder of People Cert, and he's gonna tell you about People Cert. He comes to us today from Athens, Greece.

Byron, welcome and thank you for joining us today on Predict 2024. How are you? Thank you very much, Alan.

I'm very welcome. Thank you. I wish all the best to you and your family, and all the people that are watching us for 2024 best of help and success for themselves and their families.

And thank you for inviting, for inviting me, for inviting me today. Absolutely. So it, it's actually our pleasure and privilege.

Byron, there are people out here who may not be familiar with people, sir, and it's amazing. It's an amazing story of how you've built this company. Before we jump into the topic that we want to discuss today, which is Macroeconomic Forecast and so forth, let's give people a little bit of a People Cert background, a little bit of the story behind People Cert, if you don't mind.

Yep. Well, uh, people Cert Today is a global organization. We operate in over 200 countries, and essentially what we are selling is to organizations.

We are selling organiza, organizational efficiency, how to better do their jobs, and to people, to individuals. We are selling, uh, better careers improvement in their skills in their careers. To be more specific, we are the owners today of frameworks like itil mm-hmm.

ITIL is a well-known framework globally. We're the owner of Prince two. Again, some project management.

ITIL is on service management. Uh, it is a project manager is one of the two big frameworks. PMI and Prince two are the two big F frameworks on project Mm-Hmm.

Uh, program and portfolio management. We're on probably the biggest, uh, player on the DevOps area, and we ended up acquiring last year DevOps Institute who had our products. We have products on Scrum, we have products on Lean six Sigma required a few years earlier.

International Association of Six Sigma certification, you a lot of other products as well. And all of them lead to organizational efficiency because organizations are adopting the frameworks and areas out of adoption. The, the framework they need to, uh, change or reestablish their processes, procedures, they need to train their people and they need to certify their people.

So this is an area where we call business and it Mm-Hmm. And, uh, we have also language certifications primarily is English language trading under the name of language cer Mm-Hmm. Everything that I mentioned is a hundred percent owned by People Cert and, um, we work with 50,000 corporates, literally, if you like, in blank sheet of paper sheet 10 names.

Any names that you know from FBI and CIA to Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and American Airlines, and Google and Microsoft and Apple. Nine of them use our products. 82% of Fortune 500 work with us because they like, and they need our products.

And we also work with, um, 800 government departments in 45 countries. Hmm. So these people said, and also from the financial perspective, people said, it's the first unicorn out of Greece today.

We are a polycon. The last 10 years people, cell has been growing on the average 36% per year, uh, with an EBITDA margin, which is north of 60%, and the cash conversion on the EBITDA of 90%. That's the el el elevator to investors.

Excellent, excellent. Fen, I also, if you don't mind, I don't mean to embarrass you, but you know what, I, you're not the usual tech exec. You didn't, I I know a little bit about your background and given that we're gonna be talking economics and so forth today, if you wouldn't mind share with our audience a little bit of your personal background.

Um, you're not a coder either, am I? Uh, but tell, tell them a little bit. Well, I'm Greek, but I was born in Istanbul in Turkey, former Stan.

Both my parents were teachers and teachers, the community school. And this means that we're financially quite poor. Uh, I finished the high school in Istanbul, and then I was, I graduated from a good university, Turkish University called Polish University.

I went as a financial immigrant Greece, typical financial immigrants with today. And I smile sometimes when I read on the news, et cetera. And, uh, in fact, I had to sleep to sleep eight months on the floor.

Uh, and then I started being a small businessman, doing a lot of small businesses, laundry, and then dry cleaning, et cetera, until in 19, uh, 87 I was hand hunted by Merrill Lynch. Mary Lynch then was the big bank, the big conglomerate. And the Athens office was responsible for Turkey, and they were looking for somebody to, to open the Turkish market, and they needed somebody, typical bankers, well educated, presentable, good manage, good speaking, a bit aggressive, like all as we know.

And on top of this, he or she should be able to speak fluently Turkish and go to Turkey. They couldn't find someone for six months. So after six months, big boss, an Englishman said, if you can find me, someone, I'll give you a bonus.

Either five of $10,000 back then in Greece, five, 10,000 bucks, a huge amount of money. And the young lady who was working there, and by pure coincidence, I happened to make my MBA in an American university in ath with her husband. And we happened to get married same day, same church won our difference.

She said, I know some. So I went there. I start Merl Lynch.

Cut a long story short, and in five years, I left Merrill being in my area among 11,000 people, number one, globally. And from very poor, I became multi-millionaire in dollars in this part of the world at age 31 more money, a great story, more money that I could handle, more money that I deserved, um, more money that I ever managed imagined of. And then I decided to become ship owner.

I went to Cambridge, Cambridge, the national startup. I studied shipping. I entered the shipping business.

And after two years, I decided, this is not for me, because being a child of educators, shipping was very good, but it was only about money. And I had other interests in life. I wanted to be useful and helpful.

And that's how I was engaged in education, becoming the master franchisee of an American franchise. Then it was future kids out of California. Mm-Hmm.

Was very successful in Greece. And then somebody approached and told me, you have so many students, why don't you certify them? I didn't know anything about certification.

And then how we started and the business grew and with more certifications. And then we added at some point of time, the Iil and the Prince two were one of the organizations just doing the exams and then went better. And the UK government had the procurement exercise at tender.

So we ended up being the sole, the exclusive provider, IIL and Prince two, and of course with the English language and others at the same time. And as of 2021, only the UK government, uh, there was a company that had created then the Axels, they went to a global tender and we won it. So instead of Coca-Cola buying the bottler, because we're the bottler with exclusively Yeah.

Doing, we acquired them, the bottler acquired the Coca-Cola. And today we're one, the biggest organization of our, uh, area globally, we are the owner or better. The owner is not in good work.

We are the curator, I would say, of ITIL employee two. We're the ones that, uh, it's a, it's, it's a treasure, those frameworks. And we develop them, uh, in order to be, to provide better organizational efficiency and where essentially an IP owners, the, the nature of business of people success change instead of an organization does exams.

Today, you have many more common things, uh, with Netflix and Disney, Disney Plus in the sense that our business today is to create ip, to manage IP and to, uh, monetize the IP going forward. Absolutely. We're very careful about this.

How we manage and how we monetize the ip, uh, to keep all our stakeholders, including our customers, our, our, the governments, the organizations, our people that work with us and the shareholders at the end of the day, happy. Excellent. This is, this is a story, right?

This is, this is, this is quite a, a, a, a success story. And, and thank you. And thank you for being here.

And for people out here, you know what, you never can tell what happenstance and, and how things work out. So, Byron, we sit here on the cusp of 2024. You know, for many people, for many of the younger people in our audience, especially people who have been in tech for the, let's say the last eight to 10 years, they've only known relatively good times, right?

The, the, the job market in tech was always very strong. People can hop around and every time they went to a different job, they made more money. Uh, from a, from an entrepreneurial perspective, money was cheap, right?

If you had a good business plan, some nice slides, you could find someone to invest in your business. And, and certainly during COVID things got a little out balance, right? The, the amount of money being raised, the, the, the rounds of 600 million, 700, a billion dollar raise, right?

And the valuations of companies that were not profitable, that were not, I mean, they didn't have sound business models, frankly, right? Or a lot of them. And you know, the old saying in, in economics, what goes up must come down and, and there's cycles to this.

And, you know, everything balances out. We're certainly, I think in 2023, and maybe even towards the end of 2022, we, we've seen some of this cyclic, you know, economic, uh, theory put into play, right? With the rising interest rates.

It, it put a damper on VCs raising money. It put a damper on valuations of startups. And many companies Had to slow down, had to face the reality that are they a viable company, right?

If they're just burning money. And, you know, while the economies as a whole, you know, you look at the global economy, it's not necessarily bad, GNP and, and some of the, you know, indicators, uh, unemployment and so forth low. But within tech, we, we've had a real, a real turnaround, a real, for the first time we have people with, we've seen the big tech companies and small tech companies laying people off.

VCs are not raising the kinds of funds they are. Now, I'm a big believer in cycles like you, this isn't the first time I've seen this go through, right? What goes up, comes down, what goes down, comes back up.

Um, as we sit here on 2024, what's your considered opinion on what we can expect from a macro macroeconomic point of view? I think we should look at the big picture first. What changed lately?

And then try to apply how this is going to impact in 2024. So I can see three plus one things that have changed significantly in the last two, three years. The first one is the globalization.

The work lived since the year 1990, and then with technological revolution after 2000. But as of 1990 with the collapse of Soviet Union, there was a globalization trend. Everything is global.

So all companies were growing because until then, they had access to half the world, and then they had immediately access to the full world. So everybody was in expansion mode because it was a new big market. A total addressable market globally was almost double as of 1919 2000, with the tensions between China, uh, and the western world initially.

And then as a result of the invasion of Russia to Ukraine, and now the war, uh, in strip with Israel, et cetera. The total addressable market now is shrinking smaller. Many companies are living China.

A lot of companies, uh, left, uh, Soviet Union. Uh, the war is creating question marks. And I'm not looking to this from the political perspective, good or bad, I'm just judging that there is a deglobalization.

This trend is there. Mm-Hmm. This is becoming more and more visible in the last two years, but it was already there in the last, last three, four years.

So this is going to have a continued impact on 2024. This is the first one. Uh, the second one is with the interest rates.

Interest rates, in my view, have been for a number of reasons, artificially low in the last 20 years. After 2008, almost 20 years, artificially low. I'm 62 years old, sorry, I'm 64 years old.

And I remember in my school dates that the inflation target in the western world was sort of 2%. So when we went to the banks and put our money for deposits, the banks used to give three to 4%. Why?

Because we need to have, uh, 1% or 2% the real interest money. So the money, if you put in your bank, doesn't deteriorate or a short term, uh, uh, government bonds, TBI denotes mm-hmm, US and Europe. And then the return of the long-term, 10 year, 20 year US government bond was close to 6%.

So two, four, and six. And it's normal. Instead of three or 4% to take five, one or two percentage more revenue, uh, uh, uh, return.

It's normal because it's the unknown. The fact that it's for 10 years on 20 years, and all these made sense today, or in the last 10, 15, 20 years, we were in, in the world where the inflation target was again at 2%. But the banks and the bonds, what they were offering was below the inflation, which means that if you put your money in the bank, you don't win money, you lose money.

This is from the risk per, I'm not, uh, trained economies start business, but from the risk perspective, this is not sustainable. Long, long term. You're working hard to make your money, and you put your money in your bank to preserve your money and have some return on your money in your investment.

If you want more return, you go to, to stocks, fine, you have a risk. But if you don't invest the stocks, you go to bonds and the bonds must have a real return, real interest rate, which is above inflation, and this is impact with the interest rates, et cetera. So this is the second thing, and I think people say, oh, now it's an anomaly, et cetera.

No, I would say now we are back to normal. This is a situation that we're going to have in the coming years, and the real, the interest rates are going to be real positive interest rates as it has been the last hundred years mostly. And what we live in the last 10, 15 years is an anomaly, which came trend.

And the third thing, which completely deviate, complicate everything is the mankind. For, because of covid, the stability we had in our mind create question mark to everyone's mind, how much, how much we're going to leave? Are we going to die?

So why are we going to preserve money and spending patterns have changed on, on individuals? I would say those are the three things that impacted us in the last few years. And there is a fourth one, I said three plus one, and this is ai, artificial intelligence, the way it's coming, it's going to have a huge impact in my view, on what is going to happen in the coming years.

For the ones that are going to use artificial intelligence properly, it's going to reduce their costs. Some studies show that they're going to have a positive EBITDA margin between five to 7%. Huge new opportunities to the ones that can use it.

Uh, and of course, from the people perspective, some jobs are going to disappear and new jobs are going to be created. And this may lead for the first time, uh, instead of five, uh, day, uh, work weeks, five workday weeks, we may, we may end up with less. We don't know it yet.

Mm-Hmm. So in such a microenvironment what we expect in 2024, this was a long analysis of the situation, but I think all those play an important role into 2024. I do believe that from the inflation perspective, that's going to be some stabilization inflation.

Global is going down in the us in Europe, in uk, western world primarily. Uh, the interest rates are not going to go down significantly. Maybe they will edge a bit down, but on the question from your side, whether, especially for the tech companies and especially the startups, et cetera, that the way to become an, an, an easy unicorn by creating something that has demand and it's not profitable.

Sales users, I think those days for the big majority of the players are over and over. Not only for 24, they're over 25, 26, 27. This was an anomaly.

So we're going to be, go back to a normal world where the valuations of the companies are going to be more normal. Again, going to the earlier days, uh, when the bonds had 6% return on the stock market, I remember at Merri Lynch, we, we were expecting to have 15% return, and our return rate was 13%. This means approximately seven, eight times, uh, of, uh, net profit valuation.

Yeah. If you're a tech company and you have higher rate of growth, et cetera, instead of 25, we will probably have 15 times both. And today, and today, yet we are not there because private equities, et cetera, have invested money, and they invested money on the old terms.

So they haven't digested yet the new, uh, reality. And that's why there were no cash outs in, in 2023, minimal cash outs in 2024, there's going to be pressure from the market, and I think we're going to see more, uh, cash outs on the lower valuation, 24 and 25. So free money, zero cost money is off unless you are profitable to not be able to find money, uh, you must have a business plan.

Agreed. Now, the sec the second thing, uh, is, uh, about the, the, the smaller total addressable market, this is going to have an impact as well. The business plans that have included China and, and Soviet Union and Russia, and many other companies right now, they need to be revised and say, okay, what if I'm quite successful, et cetera, but my access to this or that market is not free, it's limited or does not exist at all.

So this is going to go further down. And the big opportunity, I would say is artificial intelligence, how you can use artificial, uh, so that it can create opportunities. It was a rather long answer.

I hope it was helpful. No, I I Byron, I I, I happen to agree with you a hundred percent. com days, right?

99. We went public in 2000, right? Three months before things, four months before things started going down.

But back in those days, I remember running into companies and their model basically was, it would cost a dollar. They would sell it for 90 cents, and they'd say, make it up in volume. But you don't make it up in volume.

You keep losing 10 cents on every sale. And the more sales you have, the more 10 senses you lose. com bubble burst to make people realize that that's it.

It's a, it's a flimm flamm. It's, it's not a, it's not a model to build on. And I, I think you hit the nail on the head.

The model we had based on, on, on, you know, zero interest money that was, that didn't even cover inflation at 2% is not a stable model. It's, it, you know, it was based on this idea that somehow we were gonna make it up in volume that we're gonna make up by higher productivity, efficiency, et cetera, automation that will make it profitable, even though it's not now, you know, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. And, and it's, we, we need to, you know, I think this is what we're, we're paying with.

Now, I, I'd like to turn specifically to IT and, and Prince two and DevOps, you know, a lot of these frameworks and how, how do these economic conditions play into it, O and PRINCE two or project management and DevOps, and how you are planning at People CERT to deal with the new reality that we live in. I think it's only positive, for example, starting from Prince two. PRINCE two is in a framework about project, program and portfolio management.

You know, you have project managers. Many project managers are managed by program managers, and many program managers are managed from a portfolio manager. If you look to any studies around the world, you'll see that project management is, uh, going to be, uh, one of the most sought after skills in the coming years.

All research shows this, and it's understandable because the world is becoming more and more complex and the more complex the world is, you need project better project management. And if you nail it down, what is a project management project means? It's three things.

Having the projects being delivered on specs, as you put the specifications at the beginning on budget and on time, 90% of the projects fail on at least one of them. Three. There are studies talk about some 70, some 80, probably 90.

I mean, my experience looking around, it's very hard to find the project that is on spec, some budget on time. So some people have, uh, sat down and thought about this and came with a solution. And the prince to, is a framework essentially is the language of project managers.

In order to have this working, you need a language. I'll give you an analogy, Alan. Every international organization, every government is able to function today globally, because of one glue.

There is one single thing that makes possible for everyone to work. Otherwise things would collapse. Would collapse.

Do you know what is this glue? No English language. Take English language out.

So the French speaking French, the Chinese only Chinese, the Greeks, only Greek, the Turks only Turkish. The Germans only German, Right? Everything will collapse at the same time.

English language is the glue that makes this happen today in the world. The Lingua franca, as they as, yeah, They used to say the equivalent of this glue on project management is one of the two frameworks, because you need within one organization, the same rules, the same processes to be applied across everyone, so the project managers can speak the same language. Beautiful.

And also the new, we just launched two months ago, the new, uh, prince to prince to seventh and edition. Prince to seven, we call it. And there's a big difference versus the past, because previous versions, PRINCE two was about project managers.

The new reality today is that everything in life is a project. Small, medium size or big. You want to have a birthday party for your children.

It's a project. It has to be, you have to put the specs. This should be on time and on budget.

You want to move your house. It's a project. You want to get married, it's a project.

You can, you want to get a divorce. This is a project. It's project.

No, it's not a project, it's a program. It's a number. Oh, okay.

Okay. So, so, so the new print too is for everyone in the organization, not only for the project managers. And you are seeing huge demand around the organization, around the world, because it's also best practice and best practice.

It's proven that's working. And organizations right now around the world, they're adopting this not only for their pro project managers, for everyone. And I would urge, uh, CIOs and the CEOs and the CEOs that are listening to us today, to have a close look on this.

The equivalent of this is itil, which is ITIL is on IT service management, and it's more also service management. It used to be on the, it, now it's more general, how to manage all service related issues. Because today in the world, especially in the western world, 90% of the corporates are service organizations used to be manufacturing, et cetera.

Now it's service and how to manage the service properly. There are rules and everything is in print too. And it's, again, it's a language.

It's the language of service. In our, in, in our new, we, we are preparing advertisement campaign. I can give you some news.

Uh, we spoke with advertisement agencies and advertisement agents and came up with good message, et cetera. So ITIL is the language of growth, and PRINCE two is the language of success because 90% of the projects fail. Yeah, I just gave you two examples.

I can elaborate more and more on others as well, but that's what we're doing among others. Absolutely. Um, so the, the interesting thing, look, a lot of our audience is familiar with it.

O they may not be IT O certified, but they know what ITIL is. They know it. TSM, it service management, they're familiar with project management as well PM here in the us it's, it, uh, PMI has been the dominant one.

But in the rest of the world, PRINCE two is also very widely recognized. Dev DevOps. DevOps is somewhat newer.

DevOps is maybe 10 years old. 11 depends who you talk to, but it, it, it, it is now, well, certainly in 2024, it, it's reached a level of maturity that it hasn't reached before, but compared to it l or project management, it's still an immature, uh, framework, an immature market. What, what do you think about the outlook in 2024 for DevOps?

I think for all the frameworks, including DevOps, because all those frameworks are new things. Mm-Hmm. And they may have been adopted to some degree from the big corporates, but the world is not only big corporates, it's also the ones that not that big.

That's not only Fortune 500, that's a Fortune 5,000, Russell 5,000. So first of all, the frameworks that themselves are being developed, and now with artificial intelligence and using them cleverly, it's another big opportunity. So this is going to add more to organizational efficiency because essentially the CIOs and the CEOs, they're looking how to do their job more efficiently.

So, uh, there is a huge opportunity over there, even the big corporates, because the frameworks will continue to develop, and especially with the artificial intelligence, uh, even more, but also the adoption level from the very top, which are the leaders and the pioneers, if you want, now goes the second level. So for the ecosystem that's around those frameworks in general, this type of frameworks, uh, I think it's only positive because at the end of the day, organizations will continue to exist. Organizations they will want to grow, and organizations will want to work in a more efficient manner so that the increase the profitability as well.

And this is only going to be positive for all those frameworks, because organizations will realize even more the value of the framework. Agreed. Byron, you, you've mentioned artificial intelligence more than several times during our conversation today.

Um, and as you mentioned, some people think artificial intelligence is gonna cost jobs. Other people will tell you it's gonna make more jobs, it'll make us more productive as the, as the, uh, curators, I think is the word you used as the curators of it, L and and Prince two and, and now DevOps and DevOps Institute. How are you updating these frameworks to, to incorporate some of what AI and artificial intelligence, you know, the artificial intelligence is bringing us?

We have set up a team, an internal team. We have an AI team, as people said, good number of people the last few years now we increase this team team and we're working two directions. One direction is a bigger direction and says, okay, how we can use AI in general to increase the organizational efficiency and not limit it to the framework itself.

And this is working in progress. And by the way, if anybody tells you that he knows what the artificial intelligence is going to be the next 10 years, I think he must have a crystal ball. I haven't read anyone that seems to know, and we don't know it either, but we're working towards a direction and we have high level of certainty.

This is going to be hugely impactful and trying to be ahead of the trend now on I and Prince two, on Prince two we're quite advanced, uh, because we had the new version of Prince two just launched the, uh, the Prince two seven. So was sort of parallel development. And, uh, we've come up with a tool that the project managers that use Prince tool, they have also an AI tool, which is not built X-rays within the package, and it makes their life much easier.

It's automated, similar in nature, what, uh, what Microsoft has with the copilot. Mm-Hmm. Conceptually copilot helps you to do, if you're creating a document with Word, by using copilot, create document, much easier way, it's much faster, at least two times faster.

You can have the copilot write you the document and just make the audit. And so similar things apply to Prince two. And I think by the end of Q1, we'll have a, a clear road plan on ai.

Now we are refining further our strategy on, uh, on, on ITIL and on DevOps as well. And this is going to be a work in progress. Things are changing, um, every quarter, I would say Max, because when we talk ai, everybody thinks of charge GBT and charge GBT is a good product.

It's an excellent product. And there are positives and negatives on this one as well, because first of all, CPT is not based yet. There are other good products as well in the market, and every week a new ones come.

So we have set up a team to evaluate which of them and how we can be integrated and can be used, et cetera. But at the same time, there are challenges as well. You know, achi, GBT is being sued by New York Times and many others because it doesn't handle properly artificial intelligence.

And this is, sorry, the, uh, the ip, it, I mean, we're, I'll be honest, we're looking at it here at Tech Stunk. com has 40,000 articles on it. Chat, GPT is using that to help.

So when you ask chat GPTA question about DevOps, it may in fact be, you know, based upon what it pulled from our site, We're, we're doing, we're doing the same thing. We're looking and watching. And because our world, as I mentioned earlier, is IP creation, IP management, IP monetization, but there are other challenges.

There are a lot of people that believe artificial intelligence has to be somehow, uh, not be free because it's too dangers should be regulated. European Union came with the first regulation, not Unsurprising. Yes.

And last week, there was another development late last week that, uh, European Union right now is, um, questioning whether the marriage of chat GPT with Microsoft is creating effectively a monopoly, whether this should be broken. So we don't know which directions, which direction. All this stuff is going to go within 2024 and beyond, and we have to be ready for all eventualities.

So we're watching the space, we're very closely watching the space. We're doing our plans, we're implementing our plans, while at the same time remaining open to any changes that may be dictated either by the market itself or the regulators around the world. Because especially for people, a global organization, we operate in 220 countries every year.

So we have to be alert on what the regulators do around the world. If the European regulator does something, okay, there is a high probability that US regulator will follow. And the other way, uh, vice versa as well.

Um, but we cannot say, okay, this is not happening for us, et cetera. And I assume this is for, for most global organizations, is true. You know, I, I was, I was in, uh, Las Vegas in December, the end of November for the AWS reinvent, and I had a chance to speak with many, many companies around this very issue.

And, and a couple of things that, uh, kind of became clearer to me is number one, companies today, if they build their front end for their users to utilize chat g not chat GPT to utilize ai, they're building their backends in an open manner. Where today they might use open AI chat GPT, but tomorrow they may use anthropic or they may use, uh, Google Bard or, or, you know, so they're making it that the front end can plug into different APIs or different ais on the backend. Secondly, look, I think Microsoft is onto something with the co-pilot kind of model, but what I came to find out is that many companies are doing similar things, and they're calling it co-pilot.

Co-pilot, I guess is not a trademark name, right? It's, it's, it just means, Hey, we're helping you fly the plane, right? We're the copilot.

If if it, if it was trademarked, then no plane would be able to fly Exactly. Right. Without paying, without only pilots.

Yeah. Uh, so, so this notion of a copilot, and then I, I think you're right. You know, I went to law school a hundred years ago, right?

I graduated law school in 1984, and, um, one of my professors there always said to us that generally the law is three to five years behind technology, right? It's just the nature of the beast. It, it takes time for the law to catch up.

The law has not caught up to the issue of it in artificial intelligence. Eventually, there will be some norms that we follow. Of course, they have to pay you if they're using your information, or of course they're not using your information.

And you'll be able to say, this is not, this is off limits to a, a large language module to an LLM, right? Um, but we're in that no man's land right now where the law hasn't caught up and we, it's kind of like the wild, wild west. And, uh, we'll, we'll have to see how that plays out.

So that's a short term thing. That's very much a 20, 24 thing, I would think by 20 25, 20 26, we get a little bit more clarity on, on, on that. Anyway, I hope Byron we're over time, but I, I, I, fascinating, fascinating stuff today.

I want to thank you for coming and joining us. And on behalf of everyone watching, thank you for, for participating. One thing we have and for people who want to get more information on People Cert, what's the website?

org. Dot org o org. Alright.

And for users is against www language cert org. Excellent. Byron, continued Health and Happiness and Wealth in 2024 and beyond.

Byron Nicoletti, CEO People Search Language Cert. Thank you. We're gonna be back.

We have a full day of, of Predict 2024 for you. Check it out. This is Alan Hummel.

We're out.