What’s Hot in DevOps | Predict 2023

Hello everyone, welcome back to our continuing predict 2023 virtual conference. We've had a we've had an amazing warning of sessions. I hope you've enjoyed it.

I know with the Dual tracks. You can't always see both but they are will be on demand tomorrow morning for any of the ones you missed. I hope you saw my early one on digital transformation with Emma Keith and Martin Logan.

It was amazing session, but I think this session might even be better. We have we're in the devops track and and this. Session that's chat is going to be on what's hot and devops and it's it certainly a very timely subject as we've seen.

We've seen some Different messaging around devopsies in the last couple months. Let me first introduce you to what I think is an amazing panel. Probably the best panel you're gonna see all day on here.

I'm going to lead off. He's my friend from jayfrog Fred Simon who's actually not Chief data science officer. But he's also co-founder with Jay frog Fred.

Welcome, aren't you tell give a little bit better background for yourself? So yeah, I'm Fred Simon. And Jeff Hogg is actually my third startup and since the beginning I always loved to create software to help fellow software developers.

I always find the way and so what's kind of natural in 2008 to start to help people with package management. And so I'm here lady to represent the first public devops company and cheerful. Thank you Fred and it's a pleasure to have you here.

Next is we have a new a newcomer to our panel, but he's sitting in in as I told him earlier. He was sitting in some pretty big shoes of people who've been here before representing Cloud beats. He is cloudby's current CEO and president a news Kapoor anoush.

Welcome. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and with this audience sure.

Why don't you give a little bit of your background? Yeah, I've been at cloudbees for about five and a half months and previously at sap and Cisco been around security and applications for the last eight years. So excited about this panel and obviously fellow panelists and looking forward to the dialogue.

It's a pleasure to have you here and welcome. Next up, it's also well, it's the first time she's been on one of our panels here, but we've had our Tech strong TV. Great person doing I'm gonna let her tell your background, but it's actually Kramer who is Chief.

Let me see I get this right Chief marketing officer. Chief strategy officer and acting Chief technology officer at gitlab Ashley welcome and when it given a little bit more than that, yeah. Thank you Alan and you nailed it, by the way, so great job and also, I don't sleep a lot.

But yeah now for almost a year and what attracted me to this space was my roots were being a developer. So right out of college computer science major was a developer was a product leader was an engineering leader at some really well known companies. And so I've lived first-hand the challenges that go that come with being part of part of that role and part of that process.

And so I'm super excited to talk more about that today and could not be happy here to be a get lab and in this exciting space Absolutely, and actually welcome and thank you. Last but not least the person who needs no introduction in any devops discussion. It's our friend KK go see cake kawaguchi.

It's only taking me eight years standard together his name, right? You think that I still calling KK of course is the founder of Jenkins former CTO Chief scientific the cloud these and now is the co-ceo of launchable. com is their website he can tell you a little bit more about it.

KK welcome. I Please feel free to you know, expand upon my our introduction to you. Yeah, sure.

Yes. I mean, I feel like for the past 15 years. So something about this developer productivity value called me.

So I've you know you see with you talked about Jenkins. What I'm doing now is also very much insane space like a more focused on testing at scale program. But yeah some have stuck in sometimes and I'm getting older so I wonder if this is the only thing I ever get done, you know, I yeah, you know no complaint here.

But so that's that's good. KK welcome and so he's great to have you on so guys our panel today is entitled what talking devops we were talking before we went live. It's been an interesting year for devops because in many ways devops has achieved acceptability in the market.

I don't hear from my friends anymore. That's a marketing term. It's nothing.

It's not real. What is it really mean? It's just a bunch of cultural Kumbaya stuff and but no devops is real.

It has changed the way we deliver software software is driving. It's beyond eating the world. It's driving the world.

It's at the edge. It's at the internet of things. It's all over the place.

and the way we do software today is devops, right I now But no one, you know, if you're not moving forward you're dying in the tech world and there's always someone else standing behind you who want to take, you know climb to the top of the mountain. And you know, there are marketing folks out there who have working around with t-shirts. And conferences and say devops is dead.

Right? I wrote a little piece on it and I'll leave it at that now devops, isn't that but you know because It's the natural course of things we go through this hype cycle and child disillusionment and then it gets into the, you know, predictability phase and it kind of Fades into the woodwork where it's just there. It's accepted and some people say, oh it's because it's old already.

It's not cool. The cool kids don't like it that 15% early adopter. So I'm gonna start right there with with our panel.

Where do you see devops it? I mean I'm assuming you all agree devops isn't dead. But if you don't if you think it did say so but where do you see devops and in the in the scheme of things and the grand scheme of things today actually not to pick on you, but you're one of the new Commerce and you'll get lab, right?

So we're gonna ask you to kick it off and then I'm going to the rest of the panel can Jump Right In? Yeah, thank you. And so I actually think of course devops is is not dead.

But also now more than ever the right devops solution platform strategy is is critical to businesses and why is that we were talking a little bit before the sessions started. We see what's happening in the world. We see, you know, we see we see companies doing layoffs.

We see companies cutting costs. And so now more than ever they need to do more with less. And how do they do that with the right devops solution and strategy.

I'll take it one step further in the evolution that we see at gitlab. We're starting to call it Dev SEC Ops because right every company is a software company. We've been saying that for years every company is a security company right now too.

And so where I see this going next is Dev. SEC Ops is the way of the future and the companies that really nail that particularly right now will really Thrive get through whatever is ahead and be well positioned to be to be ahead of the competition in the future. actually Yeah, I'll just I'll just add to that.

I mean, you know what we heard from our customers is devops as a term was created in 2009. By a Flickr and if you assume Cloud effectively democratized software development. Then AWS is revenue in 2012 was only about three billion.

com, you know kubernetes. It was only created in 2014 Amazon only adopted kubernetes as sort of the environment for modern software in 2018. So what we always sort of see is the ambition and capability of the vendors is a step removed from the operational reality of our customers.

And if you go talk to the most sophisticated customers, which we believe are in financial services because they have historically spent more as a percentage of Revenue on it. They will tell you that there are single digit percentage of the weight there through their devops transformation and the way they measure that very precisely is to say how many applications do they have how many of those are modern and how many of those have truly Embrace devops and as Ashley said around On the way of embracing devsecops. So, you know as opposed to the mainstream press or Twitter.

We listen to our customers like we all do as vendors and what they tell us is that they've got their early in their journey and that is a important proxy to keep in mind as we look at the marketing buzzwords that that may emerge. Yeah, I didn't really feel like you know, the struggle that the people are having on the field is this glamorous and then date night somehow they feel very defensive not wanting to talk about it. But often those are the more interesting events in my case.

But yeah, but you know, they do the point about whether the boxy said I think the forces are the same. I think actually at that point if anything it's stronger and then so the pressure is higher the mess that they have around that prevents them from moving forward is still there. So, you know, I I have a lot of empathy for those people in between Rock and Hard places you try to do things forward.

The yeah, I guess we'll talk more about that. Yeah. But yeah media, the one of the main actually questioned that I like to answer is what is what is really devops?

What is the Final Ground like in a first principle kind of way and for me the main thing is how do you make a developer write a piece of code and that make this piece of code into the and of his end user of his runtime or whatever and everything that goes between the developer writing code and this code being useful to someone else or to some machine everything in in between is devops. And the goal of devops is to remove the human is to have from the developer two prediction without human intervention that's stars from Yahoo. I really like it.

It's from commit to production without human intervention. And so the goal of a devops engineer is not to exist is to be replaced by all the vend. That we are here and on this panel is to to replace a lot of the process and a lot of what we do as developer with what the machine are doing.

And so if you said devopsy is that it means that machine are already doing all this job that every developer out there are writing code and it goes into production without any human intervention and you talk to anyone there is a lot a lot a lot of work to do the the road is we just started but yeah like KK said It's the how to walk now. We have to we have to do all those automation we have to put those tools in parties and and we have to yeah, the security part is basically the fact that it's hard to remove human if you don't trust it and the only way to trust that the flow is is good is to have security and and to to bring security into into the into the flow. So yeah, the devsecopsies is the name of the game and here there is even more walk.

The security guy are not really used to be removed to Tennessee. Thank you guys. Yeah.

I want to put a machine instead of you. Yeah. Yeah sure.

So. Security go we're gonna return to Security in a minute, you know to see the point though. First of all out in the audience.

This is life. You can ask questions right in your chat. We'll get them up here.

We'll try to get it out to our panel. We got a question on this, you know, it's funny Fred you said the idea is to take the human out of it, but for many of our friends who are developers and Ops and and devsecops and devops people we put more On the plate of the developers and Ops, right? So Thomas mcgongle from the audience says what does the what do we think about how much we are asking I would have an apps Frank to understand right?

We've said hey Deb, you got to be smart on security because it's that secops now. Hey, Dev, you got to do the testing. Right or at least right the testing coverage, right?

Hey Dev. Can you do this too now granted those devs make a lot of money. right, they they you know knowing that but are we putting Too much, right we're doing with the Ops 2 now, you're in SRE you're not an officer and that's already and and you got to do ML and observability and and all of the and security.

Are we putting are we asking too much of our humans? In the name of replacing them with with technology. And you're kind of the new guy in devops here.

So ask you to kick it off. Yeah. Absolutely.

The answer is 100% You know, if you go talk to the cios, what they will tell you is developers have more influence more budget and more ownership today than they ever did why because increasingly large and smaller corporations are effectively re-instrumenting their workflows, whether it's customer-facing supplier facing employee facing using software and who are the producers of software who are the builders right those handy. Jesse calls it softly the developers. Well, then we came out and said for you to be effective perhaps what you needed was operational ownership of the environment that basically ran the software that you were trained to build.

And then what we say is hold on production software is only as good as the resiliency of that not only from a test perspective but also from a security perspective and these are all very important steps in the journey towards producing modern software increasingly it Is about empowering the developer to actually have that ownership and to have that line of sight but you know, we should always sort of take a step back and say how do we do it in the right way and I think as vendors we're all on the same Mission, which is we all want to make the lives of developers easier, but we all want to give them the ownership that they believe they need to be able to actually accomplish that goal somewhere in the middle is the right answer and you know, we do here from development teams to say if they're only productive 30% of the time the path to getting that 30% to 60% is not layering on more responsibility to the individuals that have the most acute stress in the system which are people who are developers that are now devops. So, you know, there's a balance between the needs of the business the needs of the CIO the needs of security officer the needs of the developer with regards to Independence flexibility ownership and ultimate resiliency. And I think that problem statement is why we as I think as a company and And obviously my esteem panel continue to believe the devops problem statement is just getting started.

If you told me that that problem was actually in the rearview mirror and we had solved that and we should all go and do something else, but we're just at the early stages of figuring that out. I think super important as part of that. I don't think anybody would argue Developers.

All are all and that's why we pay so much for them. Very smart people. They have great ideas and they want to get that in customer hands as quickly as possible.

And now we've introduced all of these other things we need them to be doing they need to be testing. They need to be it needs to be at quality. They need to you know, make sure their code is secure.

And in fact, we run our own we commission our own devsecop survey every year and the results from this year were fascinating 5,000 Dev sex ops Executives responded in 75% or and yes 75% of developers as a result of the survey. These Executives say fail to identify security risks. It's not because they're not trying it's because they're busy they're writing code.

They're trying to get that deployed. And so when you have the right modern devops strategy, you have things like integrated. So now that's getting constantly checked.

And so you're helping the developer because that's all they want is to get that value into customer hands, but Be as Executives and we as stakeholders in our company need to make sure that they're doing it in the most high quality secure and efficient way and that's why I'm so passionate about devops is not dead. It's a more relevant than ever. But what can we all do and all of our Solutions do do a mixture of this?

What can we do to take those mundane tasks? That's what the developer would say. That's not what we would say an automate them integrate AI so they can actually use their brain power for more powerful things for all of our end customers.

KK this sounds like what I when you launched lunchable what you told that? Well, I was thinking I was thinking this question in this context or like a full stack the engineer like in a car he's supposed to be able to do everything and anything and but and there's also I don't think anybody argues that having more knowledge especially in like a peripheral spaces useful like at one time. I went to a product manager training even though I was in the product and I was super useful when I got to work with saleskeeper and that's now at their mind said that was useful you kind of made me a better engineer.

So I don't think the, you know, knowing operational aspect especially because increasingly that's how we did I on better quality right like leveraging this operational capability. So I don't think anybody or you studies it's about thing to get better, but I have a lot of thinking about technically super engineers at Sun. Like I met some people who are saying, oh like I write file system for the past TD case and that kind of like a deep depth is very appreciated and hard to get so if you know if if personal question he's feeling like but I'm more of a depth person and by all like I go for it, that's it for useful.

But if you feel like you're right like a breast person that's also great. So Yeah, yeah, the large differences between all the different kind of developers is really really useful in our environment and there is no good software that is developed only with with a small one one single guy, but at a high level if you take the amount of software that was created in the last 20 years and the amount of software that need to be created in the next 10 years with all the digital transformation. The growth is 40 to 50% the amount of version the amount of packages the amount of things that need to be created.

Is growing exponentially actually at a faster rate than the amount of developer in the world. The amount of developer in the world. They are humans.

They need to be trained. You need to create them. It takes nine months to create a human and and so the growth of of actual developers is 10 to 15% depending of the years and depending of the training.

So if you look at it, we create way more software for developer. For many many years our efficiency as developer just keep increasing again and again and so on and the only way that we manage to do that is for because of people like KK that decided I'm tired of this freaking integration and this repeating integration process. I'm going to create a tool that automate my integration and created something.

I'm not gonna name the previous name. It's really became Jenkins, but I knew KK at the time when he was at Oracle and he was and it made a revolution inside Oracle, whether the piece of code to feel our pain. He was the same for us with the you have writing artifactory.

I'm tired of managing those binaries and those jobs and and those stuff it's the same with the news and Geet. He said I'm tired of doing the merge of the Linux code based. I'm gonna create a rapid tree and so we all those amazing technology that we're created by developer.

You by the way, it's the same with the with the git level. So and Sid by developer that say I'm tired of it. I'm gonna create a tool because so Ashley called it the mundane task.

I think a lot of our developers especially the one that say I'm doing too much. They don't see it that they are repetiting and that they are doing work that actually cannot be automated by Machine. A lot of time.

You have to shake them a little bit and say wait you're doing something stupid every morning your copying this file here and there and you're repeating your task that should be automated and and you get a better quality by doing all those automation. So yes, the future is towards more and more automation towards more and more Ai and ml to remove as much as possible the human from the flow. I have to say that it's gonna be challenging because of the trust whatever we say, we automate security and we automate testing and we do better and better testing.

But the if you look at compliance for example and the compliance system, I don't know how many of you went through the sock to and the sock 2 process. The main reason of the soccer process is to look at how you create your software and make sure and what they say here are the list of risk that your software can do. So you you write software for pacemaker you write software for medical devices or airplane or or things that can be quite dangerous and any kind of risk that may happen because of the quality of the software.

What they want those compliance so guys they want a guy to blame. They want to be able to go back to the company and say here is the one that messed up. They want a human being to be able to to blame on this kind of error and and mistakes and we are all here saying okay, let's digitalize and let's do the digital transformation and let's put machine everywhere.

And then who you're gonna blame you're gonna blame the machine we have the issue in it. So we we need to to teach our community and all the devops engineer that they need to be responsible for the automation code that they wrote that they need to control all the platform and all the tools that they hold that they need to be. By the way.

That's one of the main thing of Jenkins compared to who's control before and stuff is that with Jenkins you really had the visibility of what you are doing you had you it was a robot that was helping you and Giving you the visibility of what you are doing. So and that's why it catch on. Yeah, I feel like you know the impact that the software creates the society is getting bigger.

And so you're asked to take a bigger accountability and I'm just not only I think all feeding that in the tooling and the platform that we provide and that I think that's a major concern for a lot of people and I think that's a good thing. Absolutely. We've got two more questions from the audience and if it's okay with you, I'm gonna try to combine them into one question for them sake of time because we have more to cover but you know, I did this previous panel this morning on digit donation and devops and what came out of it was the most important thing you have is your Tech talent and we still good times bad times it already made the same totally.

It's upload song. Talented still the most important. thing you have at your at your just disposal in your organization, right?

You got to have the talent to to use the right tools to implement the processes. Of course, we talk about people technology and process actually one of the people in the audience said sounds like you being having on process but the culture of devops that was something that always said devops apart, right? That was one of the things that a lot of people didn't get.

They thought it was Kumbaya kind of stuff that there's a there's a an aspect of teamwork and culture that devops brings to the table. That's that is inherent and it's success. And it even extends to Mosquito security like that set up.

She got how to bring the security people who for so Long, we're not part of idea who we're not integrated into this. Into it, right? If you want to be successful.

So if you would like to answer the question from the audience, where does that culture teamwork kind of thing fit it? to this today's devops and Beyond would like to go yeah, right actually, go ahead. Yeah.

Okay. Sorry. Yeah Alan.

I think you're having a little bit of a mic thing. Just just I'm sorry. Thank you.

Sounds better now. So to answer the the audience question of my former and my prior answer was leaning into process, you know, so we could help Elevate the talent that we have but I truly see now is the time of the intersection of bringing people process and Technology together and bringing them along and that that is a big part of what needs to change in the mindset and how you need to build the culture and one of the things that I've always really appreciated at gitlab is we started as an open source project. So we kind of have that open now as a public company, even we like to think of ourselves as one of the most transparent companies in the world and that is a mindset that's you know, it's not a shift we had to do at our company but it's a it's a cultural shift that companies need to do to make sure that they're bringing everybody along and they're they're really starting to get these productivity efficiency.

Gains without a bunch of people with their arms crossed trying to trying to fight the process and to me that is the job. It's a top-down. That's one that's top-down.

You can have a developer Champion that brings any of our you know, or Ops Champion that brings any of our our Solutions into an organization, but it needs to be a complete cultural and mindset shift and that has to happen top down that starts at the executive level and in I do see it every day at Gate lab we use gitlab to deliver get lab, which is even even more awesome. So we're using our own technology. We're using our own processes all of the people in Sea and I've seen firsthand what that can do when you when you have that culture and I would encourage everybody out there to Think Through what it would take to actually make that cultural in mind set shift where needed Anyway, yeah, like okay, please I felt like this.

So all you I mean the meaning of devops or like I want people think of it had indeed evolved over time. So when I hear recently I don't say is devopsy bit. I was wondering what part what definition of that had died.

I mean indeed I think one phase there's a lot of emphasis on divs and loves like coming together. I know feel that it's not like a transitional phase in which bendy organizational boundaries that you against that like when these shifting a responsibility from the opposite there were happening the way to make it happen Grassfield is by people coming closer despite. What the what organization is.

They look like I think as we say for both mainstream now organizations a built around that so like now the raw responsibility has shifted like a saris or like a container. So when that happens this meeting emphasize the aspects because the people who think the responsibility who needs to be closer or organization closer, they don't really have extreme against that and that's why I feel like that part is dedicated getting a little bit less emphasized nowadays. So yeah, maybe just to add to to the point of the individual that asked the question.

I think I always use this screen grab a customers, which is I think it was Dave Han from Netflix in 2016. Who said you don't have a devops problem. You have a culture problem and I bet if you actually showed that application owners to sres to cios today with regards to how important transformation is and what the constraints are that prevent companies from really embracing transformation at the scale that they need to they would probably acknowledge that they have a culture problem.

So I think it is it is a very important call out from the audience with regards to the importance of that and as close Okay you meant and which is every organization is different. Every company is different. They face different regulatory constraints.

They they face different competitive environments. They're pace and velocity is subject to the talent that they can hire and the reality of the technology that they face every day that they have to Come in an effort to actually embrace modern software practices. So, you know technology only goes part of the way there culture teamwork and the mindset is equally important and I think actually gitlab represents probably the model for a lot of companies in terms of what good looks like and you know customers are just early in their ability to internalize that and apply that to to themselves especially and it's it's difficult, especially if they were created, you know less than 10 years ago.

Now, yeah, we I mean we have to be a little bit compassionate about the amount of cultural and transformation that that need to happen. We we walk a lot with the transportation Industries and I used to have a French cars and the amount of software that is inside the French car and the quality of the software and the French girls were really really I was a shame of my origin and and when we talked with them and we try to have them transform themselves and and make When you have a full company that is used to make cars and to make vehicles with wheels and things like that and suddenly you tell them you can also make software and the software you can update it multiple time per day and you have all these workflow and this requirements and this adaptation. The the whole company was just didn't know where to put it.

They had. Absolutely no. No ground to to stand on and and to be able to to move forward.

So these digital transformation that a lot of the Legacy company needs to go through is is actually a painful process and it's true that it's a cultural and the developer wants the developer are actually empowered with the ability to to create high quality software that can be trusted and that can be secure all the way to the end user and customer or little by little the organization like KK said little by little the organization say way. Yeah, it's actually works. It's actually possible and I'm getting value.

I have to say that by the way about the devops is dead today. We are I think most company the majority of the big company of the world understand it they know that they need to do. Is digital transformation World.

They need to know they know that software is actually extremely powerful for their bottom line and for their their revenue Target and the one we are seeing is the what the one that are a little bit late to the game and being pushed by lighter competition and by their environment and and here yes, some of them may be actually having a huge cultural issue. Hopefully everybody is going to get on the train and all the develop. By the way.

The compassion is also for the developer that knows how devops platform a cool devops platform could be and how fun it could be to write software and that are walking in those company and I really wanted to talk by the way. I don't know if it's a good position about we talked a lot about AI ML and all the Next Generation or quantum computer all Things but there is a huge group of software that still need a lot of devops and it's Robotics and iot, so all the robotics all the devices company and developer. They still are Way Way Beyond in the devops transformation the way people are writing software for microcontroller and for robot deploying it and testing it there is still a lot a lot of work over there and I think in a the AI American communities a little bit more mature actually from my point of view from the way I see it from yeah.

Well Alan is fixing things the second thing. I mean the threat Touchstone this point out here that the world needs a lot more softer to be written and there is a snow in a software developers going around and and it is made this observation, right? about We're still here.

Yeah, maybe it's observation about that in the financial sector or it's like they're spending a little there forward. But I mean I think so at one point out the year like I used to more naively think like, oh everybody should kind of grow up in eventually become like software doing social debate like Netflix does or Google that or whatever but now I feel like you know, it's because there's only finite amount of good software developers and more software. It needs to written maybe like these in the people some of the reason we are talking over each other in different parts of Industries, like the first they need to can hit the different kind of goal.

Like if you focus on like, how can I get like a 10,000 or you know, like, you know normal level person make them productive. I suspect of creates all the different kind of environment and machine harnessing then what the you know, what the liquor originally these feet that they love speech that when they talked to my finest of friends. That's something think about Yeah, yeah, I know that's that's the the end of the game is is really to show to all the developer of the world that there is a lot of things that they don't have to do and that they can report to to the machines like yeah, what you what you did at the Lunchable.

I mean to to help people manage their test and There is a lot of sonar Cube for to help people do their static analysis and and review of their code or all this job. Here is is really really I mean the the main issue is in the cultural way is the basically the manager said I'm paying you to do these job. I don't understand why you're using a machine to do the job that I'm paying you for and so if you are in this kind of company, please leave immediately, but that's that's about the heart of the game and the Heart of the change is to to have understood that actually machine can do a lot a lot of the the walk and Yeah, yeah, definitely the common thought I think the automation is definitely a common theme but beyond that I feel like say yeah, so I think part of the part of what we preach is like more autonomy like a self-contained team.

It's a threat Etc. If I think about the army that cooperation which you're trying to like a dude a mass it actually counterproductivity that people we autonomous and try to in some sense almost did this in them that the covids too much but the kind of creating a very religious structure defining what they need to do it actually could help so that then if some people are feeling what what I've been preaching like these guys, you don't know he doesn't understand my landscape. Maybe that's I think I wonder if that's still happening to some extent.

Which sucks and KK would what you're talking about is I think the the tech industry has gone through many phases. And anytime there is an acute demand and Supply imbalance new disruptive Solutions open up, right? I remember data science, maybe a decade ago and you could see all the stats that said the amount of data scientists.

We will need versus the amount of human beings that will be trained as data scientists. We're talking the same way about software which is the volume and velocity of software that needs to be produced to really Drive transformation and Fred you said this and industries that you know are don't look like us but really are 95% of the GDP. So we need either to be simpler.

I mean the solutions either need to be simpler or there needs to be a cultural transformation or we need to meet the developers where they are regardless of what their capabilities are and to some extent over the last five years this notion of low code or no code Solutions was an attempt to do that. And I think that's why there's so much more excitement around what happened with open AI 30 days ago, which is hold on, you know, can I effectively Outsource my Software development to to something that can make me a lot more efficient inclusive of can I Outsource my hiring interview to open Ai and just you know be the be a way more developer even though I'm 17 years old or at least pretend to be so. It's a very interesting use cases immersion.

There's a concept of all of this being, you know bundled in automating more not assuming everybody every developer can do everything across the wide spectrum of what can be achieved. From my perspective too often companies don't lean into that critical factor of developer happiness. We tend to we're all Executives at our company.

So we tend to focus on things like sales capacity and ramp time because salespeople have those tangible results. They're hitting their quota or they're not and you have so many people in seat. You can kind of apply that same thing to developers if you think about it and if you have the right devops strategy and solution it is way more expensive in my mind to ramp the developer particularly.

If you don't have the right solution and then you lose we all I don't know if we still use the term or if it's gonna make me sound old but the 10x developer, right? Can you make every developer even that Junior one that's coming right out of University into a 10x developer and not by formal education by providing them with the right tools and automation to me is a big part of that and that's coming from somebody that was a former developer and probably not a very good one. We can call someone for bosses.

I would have loved. Patients like this and maybe I would still be a developer if that was the case. You could figure them over here.

I just like talking. To the powering them to be better at their job. Okay.

Yeah, but by the way about the Recruitment and the amount the city this is what happened with security. for until recently there was a bunch of security people in every company that were taking the software that needed to go to production testing Aid validating it doing penetration test trying to hack into it and and it was a highly manual walk and mind your job of a lot of the the security people and because of the amount of work that they need to do and the amount of work that that easily acquired it's it's not possible anymore and they need to go through the same transformation of saying wait, I'm gonna delegate a lot of my needs and a lot of what I'm doing and I'm really really happy that Jeffrey we managed to catch some of those guys that manage to put their security brain into python code and then we deliver the python code to our customers so that there are no Legend there are no how is actually automatically executed in That way into into our customer and this is what yeah, all of us here as a devops vendors need to provide to the market. Guys, can you hear me?

We can welcome back. Thank you apologize. I don't know what happened to my Mac, but it it just went it locked.

We're not gonna tell you what we talked about it excited the camera, right? I apologize. It just goes to show you really don't need a moderator when you have a great panel.

Oh But we're at a time and look this was unintended, but every single one of you thank you so much for for carrying on like real Troopers here without me. This was a great discussion. I I'd love to do it for the rest of the day, but I got to let the rest of our sessions play.

Thank you all so much Fred Ashley's a pleasure to meet you. I look forward to meeting you in person. KK always a pleasure to see you.

We will see you again for our audience out there. I hope you've enjoyed this was a great panel. We've got lots more including the devops doesn't Award winners coming up.

Oh in about a half hour until then, this is Alan shimo. We've got a full day of predict 2023 here. Thank you all.

Thank you.