The Long March | Predict 2023

here Hey there. Hey there, welcome everybody. Thank you so much for being part of predict 2023 with us today and thank you for joining this session.

I know we have a great security track happening right now to check that out on recording or stuff earlier from today. Yeah. It's been a really fantastic conversation because we've had you and also people like this on this panel, which I'm gonna get to introduce them and just a moment we're talking about the Long March about Cloud native and where we are in this adoption cycle.

I want to highlight Mike Rothman talked about some of our research work that we're producing and we have trans documents that you can go to the events Hub in a bright above the agenda. There are four documents download them. They're very consumable kind of bite-sized chunks to get some of our thinking around Cloud native and security and devops and digital transformation, you know, some of the themes around Cloud native that are in this document that I want to just highlight we're talking about, you know, kubernetes and Services, and however, you define Cloud native of those containers those elements.

They're not new. We've been practicing this for a while. You may be in beginning of your journey.

You may be well into it, but we've got some good good experience under our belts, but we're in this adoption curve, you know, kubernetes or microservices aren't going to take over the world in six weeks. It's it's a it's a path. It's a journey it's a long march probably a short not shorter than things like the lamp stack took but it'll happen quickly, but it'll seem like it also will a little bit of time so jump in and check out that that trans document and there's five of them in there and we're gonna talk about some of those kind of woven into our discussion today.

So let's get to our panel, please download that and you can tell from the pregame, you know, you didn't hang enough to light the rocket it already took off itself combusted left to lunch man. So I'm just trying to hang on here. Well this group it's going so let me Just turn things over and ask you all to.

To introduce yourself about last year. Would you introduce yourself start first? Sure.

Hey, thanks. It's a very exciting to be here Mitch. My name is Balaji Palani.

I run the mark product marketing team at influx data inflex data. We are makers of influx CB popular Open Source Time series database, and I've been with inflict data for about four years. I've worked out of East Bay, California and four years.

I've been in product management really are Cloud really built with Cloud native Technologies launched on kubernetes for the past four years. We've had a number of customers on board and what's part of that Journey part of The Incident Management part of observability, so I've been been through that now, I just recently moved to product marketing and tell I'll just be a panel speaker here. So thank you.

Honestly for sure. No doubt about that Tim. Thanks for being on the first time with you and we appreciate it so much.

Thank you for joining us. Please introduce yourself. Sure, my pleasure as I'm Tim Banks.

I'm a lead developer Advocate at the growing developer relations team here at Dell Technologies. I come from a background and you know long background of system engineering system architecture devops SRE then into Consulting via Tam rolls with a A little bit of a network. There we go.

We got him back here trying to work, but the gospel of Open Source and Cloud native both from a Dell perspective to customers and from customers into doubt. Fantastic. Hey Michael left me.

How you doing? Jump right anybody. Hey Mike tenants.

I'm the head of technical product marketing for Cisco's emerging Tech where we do, you know people it's funny when you when you talk to people and they talk about Cisco they always think network, but we actually do other things so so the group that I'm responsible for we actually have a couple products around cloud and you know, my my history has been in Cloud native for a long time where I was part of the CTO org, and a lot of other groups within Cisco, and I'm just really glad to be here. Fantastic. Yeah, I remember years back Cisco launching their software effort and developer warm.

I forgot what the name of the site's called, but it's a very cool thing exactly Lee great to have you on a frequent contributor to text runs events and panels and and author and got a new book. That's just coming out, right? That's right.

My second or write a media book just came out this week. I don't even have a copy yet, but it's a it's in the mail. I've been told but I'll be getting soon.

It's called overcoming it complexity and it talks about you know, how we use, you know, things like technical debt and and how you can take advantage of things like automation to avoid. Yeah ad hoc Solutions and decrease and manage the complexity and building complex IP Solutions, but Yeah, I besides an author. I'm also a consultant that I do many other Publications.

I have a weekly article with container Journal text Strong's container journal and a couple other places. So I and and I just also lost my autism Academy training program. So in the middle of getting that going there too.

Yeah your first course I think is how to be an architect, right? Yeah, it will first course is actually you know, here's this book. I wrote try it out.

Yes, but I'm but I've got More ones in you know that are coming. But but also I do a lot of courses with LinkedIn learning and those are part of the academy as well too. So there's a there's a bunch of courses there right fantastic in your background goes back to early Amazon days and a lot of experience you've got it's a new route.

I think right. Yep. I was a New Relic for seven years.

I was at Amazon retail for a few years and and I was at a AWS during the very very early days of AWS. I I built the elastic Beanstalk service back when you know, they were still a platform company and starting to look at a you know, here's how you do ec2. And now what yeah building from there and obviously that's changed a lot over the years, but but it was a great time to be at Amazon at AWS because it was just the start of everything they were talking about now.

It's it was just a wonderful time. Pretty amazing how so much of that is come to the Forefront. So I want to start with this question.

We're in you were in this adoption, you know in in this path the Long March right of adopting Cloud native architecture and you know in my head kind of working definition, they're sort of built in the cloud is cloud native. I think more of it as things that are containerized use microservices use an orchestration platform serverless the kubernetes, you know, sure orchestration things like that doesn't be those good products, but that style of architecting and creating the application center different way that was talking on a previous panel. It's almost like the transition when we went to object oriented programming guys think about these things and they interfaces to them and and classes and now we talk we do those things but we do through apis and Computing and all this my question to the panel.

I don't mean to make it too big of one, but I really like your perspective on Why his Cloud native taken off? Why does it matter? Why is it connected with people to say?

Yeah, this is what the approach I want us to take. Let's get going on this Mike Mike. I'd like to hear you.

If you want to start again. It rules are just don't talk over each other, but anybody can jump in so you don't need me to pick who talks next. Yeah, it's funny.

It's actually interesting because I actually just wrote an article about this why we came from from like this monolithic applications to microservices and why it became popular and really, you know, the the big thing that occurred is that SAS became popular, you know, so everything is software as a service and the way of development change. So it was before we had like these, you know kind of dot notation development where you could say, hey we're gonna do like quarterly releases and we're just gonna continue to you know, and and you knew when that release was gonna come out but with stats people want features and functionality, so and they want it yesterday. They all want their widget.

They want to analyze their widget. They want to they want to figure out the life cycle of the widget. They want to understand everything about that widget and they need it.

They need those features yesterday. So with Legacy and monolithic you had these two separate environments pretty much you had like a three-tiered app, you had things like, you know, usually a web server a you know, a database and you know, some kind of load balancer in between and then you had a client that connected to it. But that made it so that there was a lot of downtime and a lot of you know, a lot of room for for mistakes now as you move and they're all libraries everything was libraries within a one monolithic app.

So as the kind of deconstructed it like a like a, you know, a fancy entree, you know, the they took all those libraries and made them into microservices and and found out that hey now we could have development teams just work on this one piece. And then only as long as the API spec is good. And the other thing that happened is open API.

So API spec came out and and everybody was like, okay as long as we follow this, we're good kinda and you know, so the the, you know that became really really popular and then kubernetes came about and they said, you know, we have a good way of packaging this all up shipping it and then kind of moving it over I have some ideas and that's that's really why I think it's became popular and then the techie piece to you like techies like me just like oh, this is really cool. You know, I could do all these kind of things and it's really neat. But you know, I Some some thoughts about where it's going that we could talk about later on and I think it's kind of a little bit too much sprawl now, but we'll talk about that later.

But my thought is that that's why this all occurred is because it made it so that it SAS was really the Big Driver open API was there apis were huge all those things kind of LED together to kind of make this big I think here to your point Michael. I feel like kubernetes started a really started to try to deliver on the promise that Java gave us which was right once and deploy anywhere, right and we never really got there with Java. So we're trying to do that with kubernetes.

Um, and what you're seeing though is the the sprawl of kubernetes into so many things for which it was really never intended and and as it has sprawled into more become more now is getting more adoption obviously because it meets more needs but it is it is built on something that for was never intended. And so I think what half the things you see in this ecosystem and reason why it's so so popular for startups right is because there are so many places that still need spackling in and kubernetes. There's a there's a rich rich area for place to grow but it's still always there's still always trying to shoehorn it into doing things for which it was never intended.

Yeah, one of the things I see when we're talking about. This is that I think the driver really wasn't as much I think SAS absolutely was a driver but I think it's more fundamental than that. I think the fundamental driver of this revolution is the standardized API and the ability to build standardized apis.

That's that's what drove SAS that's also what drove my service architectures. It's also what drove You know the the standardization for talking between your application into the infrastructure as well too. This is where things like Docker coming to play in a standard interfaces for everything.

So it's not really as much that you can deploy everywhere. Yes. You're right.

You can deploy everywhere but you don't need to deploy everywhere anymore. You can deploy wherever you want to and make use of it wherever you want to and make use of everything else wherever they want to be regardless of whether or not it's where you are and that feature that capability that's these distributed apis really has driven this interconnected application. You know, an application is no longer a thing.

It's a network and whether it's a network of services and network of SAS applications or for that matter and that work of cloud services which are services in their own right and just as valuable and useful on your own and even things like databases now are just Services right that are available. Field through apis and so this whole standardization of doesn't matter where things are. What matters is where you want to be and what you're doing and what you need in addition to what you do to make your application work and that standardization I think has been and and the the standardization and the decreasing concern as to where something is located has been the drivers with this whole architectural Revolution that we're talking about that we call Cloud native.

Yeah, but also it got chip in glass. I'm coming at it from from the learning I have for the past four years at influxella infected is a very remote company. Of course, you've either more even before pandemic started and we went to wherever we got the right engineers and we got engineers and go I've got engineers in Java JavaScript, you know react I've got Engineers right now doing rust and you know, all of those they want to create the services in their language of toys how they feel and really the microservices architecture provided benefits to allow those Engineers to express how they were able to create a services and dictate and and I think standardization of API with everything communicates to the API.

So they're still standardization available at a global centralized level, but with the inputs from all of these individual Engineers were right in their own language of choice. Just want to Yeah, no, and I think that's a good point. You know, I think that kind of you don't have to decide what you want to write it in.

And the other thing is is you can kind of glue things together. So you could say hey, you know, the the introduction of apis way back before we even had Cloud native was really the the kind of the the spark that started the fire because people developers and I include myself as one we're lazy in a good way. We want to consume something fast.

We want to consume something put it in and we want to get done this job and we want to make it super cool. And so we want to bring you know that functionality in so, you know, I feel like that you know that you have this glue now that you can bring it together now, I did want to answer one of the thing which I saw in the chat. It said what are some of the complexities you see in 2023 regarding Cloud native development.

And I think this is where the problem lies kubernetes has become so big there's this ecosystem. If you go in the cncf how many projects are there like 5,000 projects figure think about yourself and that we've we've kind of ridden this from the beginning and we've kind of ridden it, you know, and and as stuff was building, but now if you're saying Hey, I want to containerize my app. How is this going to how am I going to start with this?

All right. Well, I heard this thing kubernetes is really cool. Okay.

Well, what's cni. Do you want to use What CSI? Do you want to use?

What load balance do you want to use? What? Okay.

Do you need security? Okay, what's your scene, you know all this kind of stuff you what projects should you use? Is this one really gonna work?

Is it gonna be supported? There's just so much of this that people are getting what you're seeing is there's too much for all right now and people are getting very nervous about it to the to the point where things like Wisdom are becoming more popular because people are like, you know, this is simpler and it meets my needs so I'm gonna stop there. But yeah exactly.

I I agree with you there Michael. I think I think the standard API has given rise to a lot of sprawl an incredible amount of straw like we talked about a standard API, but then nothing else is standard anymore. You don't believe that go ask somebody what the best JavaScript framework is, right?

You have so many ways to deploy anything. So, please people literally deploy anything and there is the talk of people trying to go back to a monolithic code base because in order to avoid this sprawl and so I This is the thing that we have where can do it all so we're going to do it all but do you remember when like companies were language shop? Like we were this language shop.

We were this language. However, this language shop because of standardization you had you tend to have like decent kind of not always the best but At least some regular flow. We know we know there's all we can all train on this right now.

You don't have that you have we're gonna write this we're writing this we're gonna write this role and all going to play the same thing and from a standardization standpoint from a compliance standpoint from a security standpoint from all these other other concerns. It becomes very difficult to track and maintain any kind of governance overall that so I feel like we have made it so easy to deploy something that now we're kind of open Pandora's Box. So now we don't have to figure out how to get a good grip on what we've done.

So I think governance is definitely something that's worth talking about because I think that that whole mindset is is the one area that's that this model really runs a follow-up. So I agree with that but we have to remember that what this model is allowed us to do is to build larger more complex applications. We are building a monolith you start reaching levels of complexity.

It's really hard to get any bigger than that. It's really hard to do put more capability support more users do more, you know, whatever you want to do with out talking about splending it up and you granted the whole microservice mindset has gone the exact opposite direction. It's taking a complexity out of the application and put it into the system connection of everything and so complexity hasn't gone away.

It's just moved up the staff and that's not necessarily good is disadvantages to that. But what are the advantages that comes? That is whether you've got 50 modules or 5000 modules.

It's the same effort at the engineering level for the individual engineers in the individual areas. So you can build substantially more complex systems. The problem is you can build substantially more complex systems.

you know and we need to deal with that and and you're right I think compliance and regulation is an area in particular when and I by the way throw security into that as well is an area that's that has to adapt and evolve in order to make that work but I don't keep the solution is to stop expanding and growing and going back into monoliths. I think the solution is to find a way to deal with those issues in this new mindset. And so that we can expand the idea of how we do regulation expand the idea how we do security and I think AI is gonna be a tool that's gonna help make that happen.

Oh you bring it up? Yeah. I brought up a new word.

Yes now to make it old reference news. So if all you have is the hammer everything's a microservice that Seriously, let me bring up the topic because this has come up in other discussions of there's the technical architecture of all this and that leading to the kind of sprawl that we've been talking about but there's also counter kind of reactions to that like domain driven design. Feature teams, so kind of back to the way we do the work not just the structure of the software itself.

Is that are those some of those ideas kind of the new patterns for Mark for microservices or for cloud native kind of getting to that world? Is that more of what we need to help manage this complexity or make it something we can kind of not let it become overwhelming and become a beast on top of what we're trying to do but work for the good of us. What can I take a summit of that?

Um, so I always like to approach from a perspective of hey, let's chunk it down. Yes. It's very complex.

But let's try to chunk it down and see what those problems are and take it one at a time. What I've seen work is okay, you you want to it's not like people want to build Cloud native applications or Cloud native development each you want to satisfy a set of business outcomes today. The business outcomes is I want more scalable architectures more scalable applications.

I want to scale to millions and billions of users. I want to be like the next WhatsApp or Instagram or things like that. If you want to do that then I think you need to think about.

Okay, what are the onion the layers that you need to pay about one of the important layers. I feel like people have to always think about is a product and of the ability is what you measure is what you see what you can manage and as everybody is nothing but the the new version of monitoring previously. It used to be our about monitoring.

Hey, I just have a bunch of metrics that's collected from all the servers. I'll bring them in. I watch dashboard and I learned on them.

I think the new humidity space, you know Cloud native application architecture. The availability has to be about Let's collect all of these metrics in just them exactly if you want to do all of that plus tracers plus events plus logs. It becomes a data management problem.

You need a platform that actually can support all of those scale and be able to like analyze them not only like ad hoc analysis ad hoc where you need to be able to query and then look at different things when issues happen, you can take it slow you can start with that but I'll start with that. That's my perspective. But I know there are a lot of players that you know, people want to contribute and want to say hey, let's solve the next problem in order to solve, you know, the challenge that we have.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. But the problem is is that everybody thinks they have to do stuff in yaml. So so there's no observability in yellow.

I don't know why but you know text doesn't do animal really so so yeah there definitely is room for that. And and the funny part is is that you have to start to think to go back to what you were saying. I think that was really powerful is is that business outcome and I've really been thinking about this a lot lately, you know people get too involved in the tech of things and I'm I'm fully one of those people and when I say people I'm that but because it's cool.

It's fun. It's new. It's something new but at the end of the day, what is it really doing, you know, and and that's what we really have to get to is this making my life cycle easier and a lot of these Solutions the answer is yes, some of these Solutions the answer is gonna be no, but what I've started to look at now, especially with the kubernetes ecosystem and and something that gives me a level of observability.

I'm gonna go back to A sec is what you know what advantage does this give me if the answer is not then then that company's in trouble because if it's not doing anything, you know, there's a lot there's been a lot of tech for tech sake right now and and with the economy the way it is you're seeing a lot of that stuff go away. So things need to have real business outcomes at this point and observability is one of those things and it's funny you say that it's just monitoring. We're not supposed to tell people that you know, that's not it's but observability is the new key the key word, but what we need to see is things have to be smarter.

You know people like the tech but things have to be smarter. We have to be able to understand what The Faults Are we have to understand? What's going to happen?

We have to be predictive to go back to I think what we were saying was AI. I think AI has a big play there. It's understanding the failure before that failure happens and and really giving you that kind of You know visibility there the other thing that that comes to mind and then I'm gonna shut up is is the you know, when I talk to the guys at Google that created some of this kubernetes technology like we never intended this yaml to be consumed by humans.

It was created by other processes that created other processes, you know, and and so what I think if I don't know what what we have to do is start to say, you know, I'm still at the stage where I don't understand why I have to write yaml I should be able to inject code in the into my the into my app and it should advertise when it needs to come on and say hey, I'm a new app. I'm a new serve microservice. I'm coming on.

Why do I have to create this glue code things have to get smarter and that's what I'm all about. Is that new level of smartness? Yeah, as an awesome person knows much of that gives me anxiety, but I haven't seen much growth in that area.

You know, we've we've we used to have bottleless and we'd have tools to help us manage large models. And now that we have microservices that are all interconnected. We need tools to help us manage the interconnection of things.

We really don't have those tools yet. They haven't come and the evolution hasn't been there yet. Hey, you're starting to see it someone in the observability space but not in the architecture space.

How do you architect a large scale application and wrap your mind around it what it's composed of 10,000. 1,020,000 whatever the number is of small Services. I I've seen many companies who built move to Services show me a diagram of the service architecture and it's undoubtedly always looks like this giant diagram with lots of small balls with lines connecting them and it looks like some sort of geography.

Yeah some geodesic dome of some sort of combination of things that is It is maybe pretty as a piece of art, but has no value on its own because nobody could understand all of that. We don't have good tools for understanding complex microservice architectures. We need that and that's that's like the next piece.

We really need in order to make all this happen. So I think that though isn't kind of a consequence of the decisions. We've made right because we rely when you're in a you know, hyperscaler, right?

You rely on I'm gonna put this service over here. This isn't being a managed service and I'm gonna run this over here and run this over there. The reason that the architecture is hard to understand is because it was designed that way right and didn't we didn't really do anything to put breaks on it, you know to really check is it does this have to be that way and I think that that goes a lot to what we're saying before and I think it's especially as we talk about what the economy is going to be.

You know, if the economy is not looking great this year is that folks and be very hesitant to pursue and architecture that's gonna look like that or that kind of Architecture is going to scare off companies from migrating over to using kubernetes because like there's no way we could build that maintain that Or or or replicate that so I think there is there has to be some middle ground right of where you have a microservice as architecture but not one that is as you said like splayed out looking like someone did paint splatters across the wall as this would that is companies. Don't start that way. They start with a few Services a few microservices.

They build it out and build it out and grows and grows and grows, you know, and and just like your application in general. When you first build your application. You don't set out to build a complex monolith application.

It ends up that way same things through with our with microservice architectures. You don't start out wanting 10,000 microservices to make up your single application and Nora does your you know, your MVP if you're building a product from scratch contain 10,000 microservices, but by the time you're done it does and so it's you don't see that problem the problem you're talking we're talking about here. You don't see that until it's there and then it's too late.

That's that's kind of the problem. We're running into here. We need to tools to help us manage that um and not because we want to build it but because that's the way you know, the software always becomes complex whether it becomes complex in a monolith or in a number of services.

It always becomes complex. That's the nature of the world. We're in right wrong or otherwise in this microservice world, which gives us lots of advantages having to do with how we can build and manage those complex systems.

We don't have good ways of understanding how all that works together yet. And I think that's where we're gonna start seeing Innovation. And once we see that Innovation, that's when it becomes the last stack, right?

That's when it becomes the prevalent way that all applications are developed because it is the easiest and the most efficient way to develop applications. That's right. Now that's that's the problem we're running into I think that logic I think I have experience this first time past four years ago 2019.

We're not the first cloud service on top of community. Maybe we had like 12 services or 15 services or whatever and then right now I don't even know how many they are like more than 60 or 80. Just tiny you hey, we need a mapping service.

Oh, let's just build it. We need a something that service. Let's just build it.

So that's the power of I think the engineering team wanting to take, you know traditions and not being blocked by maybe this architecture and that actually but I agree with the concept that hey God have some sort of governance. But I also agree with with me that hey Innovation is not happening. I I kind of disagree with that because they're a lot of companies including inflex data where we really trying to use really using our own products to monitor or you know as an athome for internal communities services and it's based on inflex TV the the new architecture that you're building on right now.

That's supposed to have a single data store that can support like you can store metrics. We all know metrics register values the change over time. They can integrally events are irregular what you need more contact there and faces faces of spans and span IDs you could have high cardinality data all of this can be put into a single inflect again.

We are using it internally and yes, I agree that this is going to take a long time to reach the state of where it will go and and become like a standard in terms of where you know that everybody on the street can use it and so on but Innovation is definitely happening and I know that many of the companies as well that are using Apache air or Apache 4K as a data format to really have that inner operability. Like I said, I feel like the observable bird is a data management problem and you got to in our operate with the whole variety of machine learning tools or Juvenile notebooks and these kind of format is what will allow us to really interoperate in that manner. It's also trying to figure out like what that data means though too.

Like like some of the things we're working on in the open source world right now are things like, you know, like figure out s-bomb which is you know, that software below material and what things are made up of and visualizing those things within your environment, you know, a lot of things like like service message help with that because you could visualize, you know, those metrics and you could start to see like what's communicating with what so if you're, you know, trying to figure that stuff out that's that's some of the things that we're solving right now in in a lot of the open source that we're contributing back but but yeah, so the solutions are starting to appear, you know, and and what I think needs to happen is that they need to come together there needs to be more interconnection and and governance around this so that if you want to communicate together and want to share that data and want to do these things and want to interconnect there are standards around that and that's that's what I think the answer is is more standards more to find standards. I completely With you, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think both what both of you are saying makes a lot of sense there.

I'm not trying to say there was there is no innovation in that space where I'm trying to say is there's not enough innovation in that space. There are the tools just don't exist yet. And you're right Michael the way we're gonna get there is by interconnecting the tools that we do have in better ways.

And that means more standards more apis more connectivity. Or distribution but but really that kind of makes sense, right? If we move from a monolith from one thing to 10,000 things.

We need something above it to manage it but the thing above it doesn't have to be one thing it yeah, the thing about the 10,000 things may be 500 things and with something about that that's three things and something about you know, I don't know and I'm not trying to talk about specific Technologies there but the idea being is the complexity itself you're moving from one thing to 10,000 things doesn't change the overall complexity of the application. But what it does do is it changes where that complexity is located and what you need to do to understand that complexity and the types of tools and for that matter the types of of skills that you need in your Workforce to understand how that complexity works. You don't need people who can understand complex algorithms.

You need people who can understand. Complex interconnections. It's a completely different skill set.

But that's what you need to make that happen. Okay, I'm jumping in. I'm lowering the cooling rods into the moon pool slow down the chain reactions.

So we don't have a core meltdown that we have to we need to land this thing in about eight minutes. So six seven minutes so last question for each of you take a minute to answer this question. We're all deep into this Cloud native World architecture software Etc.

I'd love to hear what's your focus for the next six months. What are you gonna be working on, you know, maybe part of your job, maybe part of your I'm gonna I'm gonna be spending some of my time working on this problem or in this area that's for you to professional. You're part of your your career or the company.

I started with you bologna. You start out first. Okay, great.

Okay. I think we happen. I think I mentioned already that I'm part of inflexibility and we have been working on like at the Next Generation story engine which can manage or we can store guest store and analyze different sets of times these data times.

You see a metrics events and traces all together in a single database and which will enable which will be enabled by SQL query. So you should be able to run on our queries we run in into an incident and you want to know hey what's correlating against what you should be able to do it within if you sequel statements looking at all that data in a single place and then you can also visualize that data you can on that data. You can run things, you know, which are analyzing it in real time.

Asia comes in create new drive to data from that and thank you so that New Divide inside you can also call out HTTP post. For really do on the automation so that that's what that's the focus. We are really using a lot of the open source Technologies and Cutting Edge technologies that are out there patchup arcade Apache Aero for in-memory columnist or and so on that is going to be the focus for our next six months.

Okay, Tim one minute jump in there. So to put it in one word. I'm working on repatriation right working on on changing people's ID on the concept that cloud native means you have to run on a cloud provider that there's a lot of places where compute is agnostic and it makes good financial and optimization census.

Yes, our economy slows economy slow to maybe turn that that three year five year Enterprise discount agreement you're going to sign into maybe one year of capex and save a lot of money now, that sounds good. But there's a lot of engineering effort that needs to be made to give you a cloud a consistent Cloud native experience no matter where you are whether it's in the cloud provider or whether it's in your data center, and that problem is what I'm working on. Okay, Mike.

Yeah, so that the things that were mainly working on right now and in emerging Tech at Cisco are you know answering that question of how your performance in from microservices is doing using things like istio and also that kind of app modernization where you're going from Legacy to or from a legacy app to Modern app and you need to understand you know, how you're gonna do that we have we have things that around istio and Kafka that we can you know that we have a platform there and we're also doing things around security. So we have a solution and also a lot of Open Source around how do you secure kubernetes? What are the policies?

What are the bill of materials? You know, what are the all the different things all the vulnerabilities so we have a solution around that that's about you know, that will do things around kubernetes. Api's function serverless, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So those are the things that we're really working on in our area. Cool leave besides book tours and Academy content what else you're working on present. My focus is complexity management security and basically how AI can be used as a tool and both those areas.

And if I say one other thing it'd be the commoditization of the cloud, which is very similar. I think what Tim was talking about. Very cool.

Well, I we've touched on a lot of things one things. I didn't expect this to actually answer. I think we've answered the the question of what happens when four software Engineers from Cisco Dell and inflex DB and a consultant walk into a bar.

This is what happens. For joining is where's my drink? Yeah, hang out right?

We'll make sure you get that trip. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

Thanks influx. DB. Thanks Dell.

Thanks for our sponsors. We for sure you all being part of this with this dude been a great journey today. We have more coming up check out the rest of the sessions.