Cynthia Coupe, Dandelion | OSS North America 2023

This is Techstrong tv. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Open Source Summit. We're in Vancouver, British Columbia, and we're with Cynthia Coup, and we're talking about software developed for diversity and inclusion, which she works on that project.

So Cynthia, welcome to show. Thank you very much. I feel like we've been talking about this stuff for a while now, and I would just ask you straight up, are we making progress?

And if so, why? And if not, why not? That's a great question.

Uh, so far we haven't made much progress, to be honest. Um, we, this project, the S D D I project started in 2021, so it wasn't very long ago that we started looking at who we have in the tech industry. Um, by that I mean, you know, what percentage of men, what percentage of women, what ethnicities, what ages, and, uh, how about, uh, disabilities as well.

And so we collected a bunch of data in 2021 on that topic, and then Covid hit, uh, we didn't do a whole lot with it, of course, we kept on working with our best practices to get people employed and to try to diversify who we have in the tech force. Um, as we know, it's mostly men and mostly white men and of a certain age demographic as well. Um, too Many people who look like me, I know, Like you.

Yeah. And a couple that look like me, but, you know, um, and so what we found when we looked at the numbers again, so then everything kind of went on hold. The S D D I project went on hold, and in 2023, we rebooted it.

Well, late 2022. So we recently looked at numbers again, and they were essentially the same. Um, so what we know is that, uh, whatever's been happening hasn't actually been working.

So what we're trying to do with our project is say, well, what is working? Like, what have, what have industries, companies, software, tech engineering been doing, and then what's not working and what is working, and then how can we create best practices from that, as well as bringing in people from other industries. Um, because if we're just looking at the tech industry, well, maybe we don't have the answers, but maybe other best practices and other research from other industries can give us more light on what it is that we need to be doing.

This is part of a larger issue with how we teach math that goes back all the way to grammar school and the whole process that's involved in all of that. What does it take to kind of unwind that? Because it's so ingrained in our culture and society that it's difficult for anybody to kind of break in at the high school level, a college level, or even later on.

So is there some way to kind of think about this that, um, will enable us to achieve the goal? Yeah. But you know, realizing that we're dealing with not just, you know, here's my policy for the day.

It's Right. 30 years of ingrained behavior. It is absolutely.

I mean, everything, no systems exist alone, right? So the system we're working in, of course, it goes back to school, society, family life, you know, anything. Um, in, so we have three s d d I has three working groups.

We have the neurodiversity working group, we have the diversity and inclusion working group, and then Talent Pipeline. And so the talent pipeline is actually kind of addressing this question. We're looking at what do we need to do to recruit farther backwards?

How do we change opinion and information based on, you know, uh, like how can we reach out to people essentially in schools or when they're first beginning to learn about different industries? Can we partner with teachers? Can we partner with universities?

Can we partner with, um, you know, even, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, like internships and get more people interested in what we're doing so that we can create a wider pool to begin with. That's one of the things that we're, we're looking at. We were in Dublin talking about this topic, and one of the things that came up was that, um, when people were reviewing code and they thought it was a male on the other side, they acted differently and they had different assumptions than they did if they knew the other person was female.

Mm-hmm. Do we need to have a more neutral approach to how we do code review and maybe DevOps and everything that goes with that, where maybe we don't know who the person on the other side of it is, because that would just give everybody a more even response, Right? Absolutely.

I mean, that's a fantastic question too. I think, you know, So much of what needs to be changed or what needs to be looked at differently is our own opinions, right? We really do need to look at ourself and see what, what are we doing?

What are we assuming? What assumptions are we making? How can we act differently so that we can have a different outcome?

And some of that might be, uh, making things less, uh, more neutral, I guess, like you said, you know, um, and some of them might be really looking at what that means, right? Like, uh, with, with neurodiversity, neurodivergency for example, um, autism, adhd, anxiety, dyslexia, uh, a lot of times we don't know if somebody is neurodivergent, right? It's not obvious by looking at them, it's obvious by looking at somebody if they're, you know, maybe a particular ethnicity or maybe if they're a female or a male, but you don't know if somebody has autism just by looking at them.

Um, and, and the person that has these characteristics might also not know that about themselves, right? So, so how do we create an environment that is inclusive of everybody without having to know that, right? Kind of like how do you create the environment that, you know, is inclusive of the opinions of a person without them knowing who, who the other person is.

So like, neutralizing what we're looking at. That's a big question. We live in a development world that prizes speed almost over any everything else, and that's not necessarily a good thing because we are encountering quality issues and security issues.

So maybe if we had a more diverse set of minds looking at things, maybe the outcomes would be different. I don't know. But seems to me like there are attributes of that are positive that people of different backgrounds bring the things.

And maybe we should be thinking that through a little bit. Absolutely. I mean, research is showing us that groups that are more diverse, whether that be, uh, that they have more gender diversity or more ethnic diversity or more, you know, neuro divergent brain diversity, that they are more productive and that the environments create happier people overall and, uh, obviously more inclusive, but, but it, it also changes the opinion of others, right?

So like, when women are included in the workforce positive, uh, outcomes for, for women and, and thoughts about, you know, women and what they're capable of happen. When we see neurodiversity, neurodivergent workforces working with, uh, neurotypical work, you know, people all working together, uh, outcomes are showing that it's about 30% more productive than if you just had neurotypical. So, and obviously people of different, um, races and ethnicities as well have different, uh, ways of looking at things just because their cultural backgrounds are different, or maybe because how they grew up, what they learned about were different, you know?

So, so together all of that, uh, creates a stronger work environment. Have we created something that feels like a meritocracy that's based on attributes defined by white mouth and maybe, you know, we need to actually reexamine what it is that we need software development teams to do in the first place? Absolutely.

I mean, you know, uh, in the world that we live in, we need as many people that are thinking in different ways as possible, and we need to take out that box that we've created by whoever created it, however it was created, and do something different. Because if we keep on doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, The part that I don't quite get is so we're all aware that we're short of skills and talent and people, and yet we're not really going out of our way to make it easier for more people to be part of the process or be included in the whole environment. And there's talent that, um, there may be somebody who has a family and they have children, and they can be great development team for certain hours of the day, but then they got other requirements and other things they gotta take care of.

Mm-hmm. There are other folks who are living halfway around the world, world that probably live in cultures that don't promote this kind of, um, education, but if they're exposed to it, they could do all kinds of interesting things. Mm-hmm.

So do we need to figure out a way to not, uh, be obsessed with, you know, we're gonna have a sprint nine to five east coast time. Right. And maybe we, and then that's part of why we're not Yeah.

Getting more of this inclusion. Yeah, I, I agree with that wholeheartedly. I mean, I really think that, you know, something that Covid has taught the world, if we're willing to look at it, is that when people have a different kind of flexibility, they become more productive, right?

I mean, so what we saw in Covid, uh, in schools and in, in workforces was systems sort of falling apart because everybody had to stay home. But when, when we had to keep working or we had to keep going to school, we saw what people were capable of when they had an environment that they also had to fit into, right? So, for example, maybe we weren't working nine to five anymore because the office was closed, but we were still, and we had the kids at home, but we were still able to create a really productive work environment when we were able to work from, I don't know, 12 to six, because that's what worked out for us.

And maybe it was only three days a week, right? Mm-hmm. So not that, not that we need to go into that kind of system exactly, but looking at what works for the individuals who are working and how can they, because we're all more productive if we're able to work under what's best for us, right?

We are seeing a pushback against remote in general though, because there are managers that wanna have those people around collectively, they feel that there's more, uh, collegial behavior leads to more innovation. Sure. Um, but I don't know if that works out to be true or not.

It seems to me maybe the managers need to adjust rather than forcing all the people back into a system that, as we've seen earlier, the metrics would suggest it's not working so well. I Agree. I mean, I think the traditional management system works really well for traditional systems, and we are asking managers to shift a lot.

I mean, a lot of the research that I, that I am aware of is like, I mean, if you think of a manager like a teacher, right? Teachers in the classroom are really being asked to do a lot more than they historically used to be asked to do. Managers in the workforce are asked to be doing the same thing.

Well, now you have to manage people that are remote. Now you have to manage people that come from different backgrounds than you. Now you have to manage people that have different, you know, uh, brain needs than you do, right?

And so that's a lot to ask of a single manager. So maybe what we'd need to do is even step back and say, well, let's look at our management system. Is there a different way that we can create a management system?

Mm-hmm. Can, because there's a lot of really fantastic managers out there that might not be sensitive to how you work with somebody who's neuro divergent, but there might be somebody else in there that could be like a neuro divergent support manager that helps with that, or mm-hmm. You know, creates more of an, you know, maybe there's a type of a manager that's better at, at managing people offsite, or maybe you just don't give all of the traditional rules to a manager because, you know, absolutely.

If, if you're asking the structure of the workforce to change, then the structure of management also has to change. There are a lot of folks who are working in systems, they are women, minorities and whatever else, and they manage that and they do some interesting things to make that happen. What's your advice to folks who are kind of working in those systems today?

How do you help change them? How do you kinda become more of that agent for change in a way that is, uh, difficult? Because it can be frustrating to no end.

So, absolutely. You know, how do you kind of, you know, get up for that game every day? Yeah, that's a great question, isn't it?

I mean, that's it. It comes so down to individuals. I mean, I think that the first one is we have to be willing, you know, we have to be willing to actually change.

We have to be willing to actually look at ourselves and to, to want change. We have to be willing to want something different. And then realize that what that means is changing and, and looking at ourselves too.

You know, what works for us? What doesn't work for us? How can we define ourselves in the way that we work best?

And then see that in our employees as well. So it's, you know, it's not like a, I don't see it as being a specific, you know, here's your rule book, here's, here's the things that you need to do. But it's, it's getting, uh, what's important to an individual and having them understand themselves so that they feel like they want to create an inclusive work environment.

Um, I, I think it's relationship building, really. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of it starts there.

Do you think we need to have a more open and honest dialogue about this thing? Because I think we're asking a lot of people to change who they are Yes. And how they operate mm-hmm.

To fit a system. Yep. And maybe, you know, the system needs to say, Hey, how do we make this work for the people?

Yeah. And then we'll get better results cuz happy people do better work in general. Uh, yeah, absolutely.

I think so. I think we do need to have, uh, you know, we need to change our culture of communication and dialogue and, and what that looks like, because, uh, it's too much for any one person to hold or to understand or not have to do on their own, right? Mm-hmm.

So we, we do, we need to have some hard conversations, which hard conversations aren't, you know, meaning that anybody's wrong, but it's just like, let's really look at this and what can, what can we change? What is it that we need and how can we support people that we want to have in our workforce? Of course, there are folks who look like me, who have been working in that system for years, and they're comfortable.

In some ways it's a crutch because it allows them to kind of, you know, just do what they ever do and their heads down and they go, this is my thing. Mm-hmm. How do we get them comfortable with being uncomfortable?

Right. That is the ultimate question, isn't it? I mean, you know, I think some people are more willing to do that than others, right?

So I don't think you're ever gonna capture everybody to be able to do that, but I think that it's done. Um, I think it's done in small ways, and I think it's done with finding the right, maybe the right coach or the right person to come in and actually start those conversations. I mean, I've seen a lot of, um, industries change through, through repetitive and simple things like, uh, lean in circles where, you know, it's like a group of people that are coming together and they're talking about an issue, and then, you know, eventually they come together and they talk about that enough that like, like maybe you're not changing the manager, but maybe you're changing the culture around the manager, and then the manager understands that something needs to change and is, is willing to look at that in a different way, you know?

And so I think it's just having, um, access to understanding and, and growth and having a growth mindset. I mean, uh, we're, we're not ever going to change everybody, but I think that it's just, it's just slow and over time and with the right supports in place, you know, It seems like we're also trying to strike a balance between, um, women, for example, in the workforce, don't want every conversation to be about them being a woman in DevOps. Absolutely.

They also want some recognition though, that there is this kind of, I don't want, I don't call it the old boy school of whatever. Sure. But there, there's that vibe.

Yeah, absolutely. So how do we strike that balance where, you know, that every conversation therefore doesn't become about whether or not you're an ex in DevOps, right? But it's about your knowledge and your skills, right?

But some recognition that the system is flaw. Yeah. Yep.

Well, I mean, I do think as Nice to meet you, I think that the, the person also that's entering, so obviously, you know, maybe the, the men that are typically there have to make some changes. But I think also whenever we as an individual who is a minority or going into a situation where we are a minority, uh, that's a brave position to be in. And we get to understand that we have to hold a different kind of space than we might if we were walking into a majority situation, right?

Mm-hmm. So some of it is just our ourselves reminding the people who are listening, Hey, it doesn't need to be about that. It could be about this.

You know, We're also seeing scenarios where more women and minorities are being promoted into these positions. But, you know, there's always, you know, let's just face it, 15% of the population is stupid, at least. And, And, but they go to work and they add into some noise into that system.

Mm-hmm. Is it harder for women and minorities and other folks to become managers and deal with that scenario? Because it does exist, Right?

I mean, statistically it looks like it's harder for that to happen because we don't see as many women and people who are minorities, uh, becoming managers are getting promoted. Um, again, you know, the, the area that I work that I am most familiar with is the neuro divergent area. So looking at people who have autism or adhd and why are they not getting promoted and what is happening that's creating that kind of an environment.

Um, I think some of it is just being, you know, unaware of the unknown or, um, un this is a bad idea, unable, you know, it's like, it's just not, not enough training a lot of times and really understanding what that individual is like. And so, you know, I mean, women, it's not just in the tech industry, it's, it's all over the place that historically this is what happens a lot of times when women are entering, uh, previously do male dominated workforces, right? Like, it just takes time and patience.

And I, I mean, it was, you know, we can think of like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, right? Wasn't she like the first or the second female to be in college to become a lawyer? And she had to work twice as hard and, you know, answer every question right?

All the time in order to get any kind of recognition or even complete. But now it's not really unusual for women to become lawyers, right? Like a lot of times there's more female lawyers in a class than there are males.

So, uh, you know, over time and consistency, we can, we can make the changes. It just takes, takes those first headliners to really do it for us. Do women and minorities need to do more for each other to help each other out up through the, up through that system?

I think, you know, there's a sense that guys will, you know, they'll go have beers and they'll go play golf, and then they'll kinda lean on their buddy a little bit more. Yeah. It's not clear to me that that same dynamic works out elsewhere.

And maybe, you know, there needs to be a little more of that I connection, man. I think that what's really important is that we see each other's similarities more than our differences. And I think that what happens a lot of times, um, especially when it's something that's obvious, like let's say a woman, right?

It's obvious that, you know, a woman looks different than a man. So then you have, you're looking at what's dissimilar, so then you're going to see other things that are dissimilar. So what I see in workplaces, when individuals are willing to be vulnerable and talk about their own experience, or talk about even what their similarities are, or talk about what their challenges are, you know, I could take somebody who's neurodivergent, for example, and say, well, you know, I have autism, and what that looks like for me is I'm not going to make direct eye contact with you because it's difficult for me.

Okay? Now you understand something about me and you might change your judgment or your perception. And so once you know that it humanizes me to you because I've told you something about myself that you'd had a previous judgment about.

And so when I see workplaces that have those individuals who are willing to stand up and be a spokesperson or be a model, not only do other people come out and start saying, Hey, I'm like that too, or I understand what you mean, or Can I talk to you about this thing? And then there's more understanding. You're changing the culture, and the same thing is true for women or other minorities as well.

So that's, that's a lot of times what it takes. But it, it often starts with a special person. You can't say you have to have a spokesperson.

You're going to be it because you have autism, right? Or you're going to be it because you're female. So creating a culture in a workforce where somebody feels comfortable doing that, and then more people feel comfortable doing that, that's where the change happens.

We're just humanizing ourselves. And that's, that's really what it takes. We're finding the similarities rather than the differences.

Of course, HR teams are involved in a lot of this discussion, but it's not clear to me that that's an effective route. It just seems that that's more of a, you know, here's a mandate, but it, right, it's gotta happen at the grassroots level. Absolutely.

I mean, I think that it is really, of course, it's really important to have policies and procedures in place and to, you know, have guidelines and all of those structural things are important. We need to have those. But, but what really changes the culture is having these conversations and what these conversations don't start by themselves generally.

I mean, there are probably some really gifted managers out there who understand all of these differences and can support or change that, but that's, that's the kind of work I do. I come in and I help companies, I help start these conversations so that the culture can change, because that is, that's where it changes. It changes on the one-on-one and the small levels, and then it grows from there.

And then you have your structures in place, and then all those things make sense. But there's no formula for changing the, the culture. You can't say, this is what you need to do.

What you need to do is you just need to start these conversations with somebody who under, you know, who can come in and be like, okay, well why don't we try this? Why don't, why don't we finesse this thing? Why don't we, you know, because it's different for everybody.

We're we're people. We're dealing with people. We're talking about changing people.

There's no formula for people. There you go. All right.

All you folks that go to work every day to help change the culture, thank you. All those folks who don't open your hearts, open your minds and don't be such, uh, you know what I mean? Hey, Cynthia, thanks for coming by.

You're Welcome. Thank you very much. All Right.

And we'll be back in a minute.