AI Legislation and Global Tech Regulation with Victoria Espinel at JFrog swampUP 2024

This is Textron tv. Hi, everyone. Back here, uh, at Swamp Up in, uh, beautiful Barton Creek, Austin.

We are joined by one of the keynote speakers here on day two. Her name is Victoria Espinel. Yeah, right.

And Victoria, first of all, welcome. Thank You. And thank you for presenting here at Swamp Up.

Um, we'll talk about your impressions of that later, but let's first introduce you to our audience who weren't lucky enough to be here. Um, give them a little bit of your, your journey of your background of your story. Thank You.

Well, I'm so happy to be here. It's been amazing to be here. I mean, the energy at Swamp Up is incredible.

So I, I feel very lucky to be here. Um, so right now I'm the CEO of BSA, the Software Alliance. And what that is, is it's a group of enterprise software companies, and we represent them in front of governments around the world working on ai, legislation, privacy, cyber, all of those issues.

But, you know, this wasn't, this wasn't what I always thought that I would do. Um, I grew up in Washington, DC but I, I ended up there because my father immigrated from Columbia to the United States, um, from a very, very small village there. And when he was in the US stationed at Fort Belvoir, he decided that if he stayed in the United States, he wanted to raise his family in Washington, dc.

So I grew up in DC but not working on politics or on policy in any way. Um, and I, uh, eventually became a trade negotiator for the United States government. So negotiating trade agreements with governments around the world.

And a big part of why I did that is because I think given I grew up in Washington, DC and given my father's story, the United States is such an important actor in the world, and the example that the United States shows is so important. And, um, I think representing the United States government through trade negotiations, and then later on when I served at the White House as President Obama, was very important to me. Um, Well, but let's stop there.

One second. What did you do with President Obama? So, I had a brand new tiny startup office at the White House.

It's very unusual to get to start a new office at the White House. So it was a great opportunity, and what I did was advise the president on intellectual property and innovation, and then coordinate across the US government what we should be doing to protect American intellectual property. So I was, I was colloquially known as the IP Czar.

Okay. Um, But my job was how can the administration help protect intellectual property, American intellectual property around the world? Um, it was a fantastic experience.

And now very important too. Uh, yes, very important. And, um, and now at BSAI work with enterprise software companies on ai, cyber privacy, intellectual property, cross border data, data governance on all the many, many issues and decisions that governments make that have an impact on how software companies are able to execute their strategy or not.

And I, I should mention this is not just for the, with the US government anymore, because it's a, it's a big world out there. I assume working with eu, which in many ways is much more active than we are, The EU is incredibly active. We have a, we have a great team in Brussels, um, that works at the eu, but it, to your point, it's, it's around the world.

So I would say there are 20, 30 governments right now around the world, actively drafting legislation on artificial intelligence. It's very, very quickly moving. Um, and even in the United States, it's policy making has changed.

So you, you know, you think about laws in the United States, I think people typically think about Congress, what is the US Congress going to do? And it's really important when the US Congress acts, they can act a lot. But the administration, the executive branch has been very active, particularly since President Biden put out an executive order about a year ago.

Um, so that is, there's a lot happening inside the administration. And then another, listen, Unless the Supreme Court decides that administrative agencies don't have the power to do anything without an act of Congress, and we all get stuck in cement shoes, but that's a topic for another day. Um, Another dynamic that has really changed in the United States over the last five years is what's happening at the state level.

Yes. So, states used to not be that active in tech policy, and then California passed a privacy law that's been very influential. Another of other state governments started passing privacy laws, and that, uh, you we're seeing that even more with artificial intelligence.

So, um, we have states across the United States that have been actively working on and passing laws, um, that are gonna impact AI legislation. And that's a very different dynamic than, than we've had in the past. In tech policy, you have, you know, 50 states of the United States all thinking about different aspects of AI legislation.

So when you look at all the activity in the state level, which I think is up 400% compared to where it was the year before the Congress, the administration, then that's just the United States. Then you layer on top of that the entire European Union, and then India, Japan, South Korea, Australia, you know, governments around the world that are working on, on, on AI legislation. It's, it's very, very busy.

So, I, I have some thought, what a surprise. I have some thoughts on this. So, first of all, I really believe the current state as we sit here right now today, we're in a bit of a, a honeymoon blind spot where most governments, you know, they're in their investigation phase, they're in their think about IT phase.

But from like traditional compliance and audit, there's really not much. Today. We're talking about it, but we're not really doing a lot about it today.

But for good reason, because I think it's, it's, it's still too new and things are changing so quickly, so quickly that we, we don't, we, we need this to kind of, it, it's like, it's like trying to put your hands into jello, you know what I mean? You, it'll, it'll squeeze out between your fingers. We need a, we need it to define itself better before we can do that.

So I would say a few things. First of all, you're absolutely right. Um, the European Union has passed an AI law.

Yes, I, sorry. But now they're gonna go through a whole process where it gets implemented inside the individual European countries. So that is really just coming into effect.

And then other countries around the world are working on it. So we're definitely in a place where the laws have not been written yet. I would question a little bit the, you know, the premise is that a honeymoon?

'cause I actually think there's some real downsides to having that lack of clarity and predictability and knowing that laws are coming, but not knowing exactly what they're going to say. So I think there's an enormous benefit to the industry to have laws be put into place as long as those laws are workable and not overly burdensome, and are giving companies guardrails that they can work within The market doesn't like uncertainty. Exactly.

Is what you think. A lack of clarity, lack of predictability and global inconsistency. Yeah.

Having one government have a set of regulations, it's very different from another government set of regulation is very chaotic and unhelpful. Um, On the EU thing though, I want to make, don't freak out, because my understanding is that like GDPR when that came in, right, they, they passed the law now, but it really doesn't go into effect. It, is it 2025 or 2026 as this thing develops and, and they, individual countries, nations, you know, kinda figure it out.

Exactly. That's exactly right. So we at BSA are gonna be spending a lot of next year working with the European Commission and with individual member states as they start thinking about how they're gonna to implement, how they're gonna write the re regulations that have more details, the EUA act, and then actually start putting them in place.

I think that's gonna be, it's gonna be very busy, you know? Yes. As you can imagine.

And Complicated. But it could busy. I mean, you know, like, good trouble.

Yes, yes. Um, Can I say one more thing though, about sort of the, this global dynamic we have, because I've never seen anything like it, I've never seen this many governments that are interested in a tech policy issue at the same time as they are focused on ai. And a lot of that is because chat GBT when it launched, it really captured, captured the public attention.

It captured the government's attention. And so there's been this Captured the world's attention. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. And, uh, you know, policymakers are people too. And so it has led to this surge and interest around the world from regulators and legislators on AI policy.

But at the same time, to your point, I think they're also sort of in a, we're figuring this out. And so more than I've ever seen before, there's a real willingness between and among governments to try to work with each other, to figure it out together and come up with a common approach. Now that is not gonna be true for every government in the world, but it is true for many of 'em at a scale that I've never seen before.

And that I think is a real, that's a real positive and a real opportunity. I, I agree with you. So again, I have a theory on this, right?

I, I think, and I've been in technology 30 plus years, o overwhelmingly, 95% of the technology innovations that we see people here at this show get very geeked up about. Right? We love 'em and they really affect our life.

I'll give you a perfect example. The cloud, the cloud was huge for tech people, right? The idea of putting stuff up, you know, in the cloud and not having to worry about the infrastructure and all that.

But other than your mom or grandma saying, oh yeah, my pictures are in the cloud. It wasn't, it wasn't in their day to day. Right?

But then there's every generation or so we get these civilization changing technologies. The internet was one. Uh, I don't have my phone.

It's over there. Yeah. The mobile phone was another, these things changed People's lives.

7 billion people, right? More than half of 'em have been changed by, by these things. AI has, AI transcends technology to civilization level.

And I think that's why we see the, the, the confluence of, of countries around the world. Every, I think people, governments recognize it. People recognize it.

Here's my fear though. We could create all the regulat. It's like, you know, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns, we could create all the regulations we want.

But there are gonna be countries in this world not naming names, who don't sign on, who, you know, who have resources. Right? Right.

You know, you wanna call it the axis of evil, or whatever you want to call it. Right. Who are going to do things regardless of what our regs are.

And where does that leave us from a nation state perspective? You, you were in the White House, you know that, I mean, it's one thing to say, how do we, we regulate industry. It's another thing to say at the nation state level, right?

If they're gonna be using this to, for espionage, for nefarious purposes, attacking critical infrastructure, we, we meaning this community, we have to defend that. What do you, I don't wanna bum everyone now. No, but what do we do?

I, so I completely agree with that. And I think, uh, and, and this is not just an AI problem, right? No, I get it.

Like these, it's a similar problem. Cyber, yes. For example, cyber norms.

Yep. Um, and what are the cyber norms that nation states are gonna sign up to? I think you said something really important there.

You said government, uh, it, it's not just about regulating industry. It's a big, big part of it is governments deciding what are the norms that they are gonna place on themselves? Yep.

How are governments going to use this in a way that's responsible? And that is also something that is really just beginning. And you're seeing the EO is the, uh, eu this administration's, uh, the executive order from President Biden is an example of the administration starting to figure that out.

You know, it's the longest executive order in history. There are a lot of details that still need to be worked out. The eu, as you said, is starting to figure that out.

Um, but that I think is very important. It's not just about regulating industry. In fact, the really important part is how are governments going to use this and what are the guardrails that governments are gonna put on themselves?

And then to your second point, it is true that not all governments are going to agree. And that is not just the case in ai. That's the case in a number of issues.

And I think it is, it is, it is just the reality that we live in. And so I think the answer is not to say, well, if we can't all come to agreement, then we're not going to act. I think the, the answer there, I guess I say this is a, you know, as a former government negotiator, is to try to have as many governments as possible sign onto those norms and at least create a situation where there is a, a global consensus as broad as you can make it.

And there are outliers, right? And maybe those outliers will eventually come along, maybe they won't. But if, but much like Climate change.

Yes, Exactly. That's a great example. Yep.

That's a great example. So there's a standard that there's sort of a recognized standard that some number of countries believe that we should be aspiring to. I agree.

And the United States has to be part of That Right. Sector. Exactly.

Not just part of it. I, you know, and it's not getting into politics, but Regardless of administration, the United States needs needs to be front and center to, we Need to be leading if we truly wanna be a power. And, and I think every politician will tell you, you, you want the US to be a world power, and we don't have to be the policeman, but we've gotta be the world power or a leader in clean energy and, and technology.

We need to lead on this. It's that important. A hundred percent.

And partly because so much of the technology is created here, right? Yes. So just because we have an sort of inescapable responsibility because of that, but also because I've seen before, because the United States, what the United States does matter.

Do people look to the United States, do as an example, do. So we need to be the best example that we can possibly be. That brings me back to something I said earlier about the eu, because they seem to have their act together.

Yes. We, I, I firmly believe, and I'm an American, and I believe that a hundred percent. It just seems like on matters of technology, climate change and, and some of the other things, there seems to be a greater will to act at the EU level.

And, and the United States is content to take sort of a wait and see. So I think there are a couple dynamics there. I think in part, I think the United States approach is, I would say maybe let's wait and see.

But this, you know, we are still at a fairly early stage. Yeah. And so I think there's that interest in seeing like, let's make sure we fully understand this before we move forward.

And I mean, that's a positive. You don't No, You don't. Paralysis.

What Do they say? Fools rush in we're Yeah, Exactly. People dare to tread.

Um, I think there's also, I mean, there's a very specific, I think, interesting dynamic in the European Union and the European Commission because the European Commission, you know, its role is to bring together and negotiate among the member states of the European Union, you know, the specific countries of the European Union. And so because of that, I think they've become very, very adept negotiators over the last, uh, you know, while the, while the European experiment has been going on. And I think it has actually put them in a very good position to be thinking early about regulation.

'cause that's really their, their mandate in some ways Sure. Is to do that and to bring the different views of the European member states together. So it's, um, it has led, I think, to this consequence where they often are on the leading edge Yeah.

Of regulatory policy. Now, you could argue that that's good or bad to be on the leading edge of regulatory policy, but it is definitely true. Someone has true.

Right. Someone has to do it. And look, I applaud them for it.

I don't agree. I, I mean, they passed recently a, uh, something around open source, uh, the Dora, right? I don't know if you're familiar with da, the Dora regulations.

I don't necessarily agree with everything they do, but I admire their gumption to do it and their political will to, to do things. I, And I think one thing that's important, not just for the European Union and for any government, is to be, to have the sort of confidence and credibility that if you do move, you are your, you know, you are reexamining the regulations and the policies you put in place. And if they don't work, that you are willing to step back from them and redo them.

That's not necessarily a confidence that every government has, or every company for that Matter. No, I absolutely. But It's very important.

Last question. I'll let you go. This is your first swamp up.

What do you think? I think it's incredible. I mean, the energy here is so positive.

Um, it's so exciting. Um, you know, as I, as I, uh, as I mentioned to the audience, I grew up in Washington DC and I have a house and a restaurant in New Orleans. So, so the whole swamp up theme is deeply Resonates with me.

Yeah. Right. And I find really appealing.

Um, but it is, it's such a beautiful place. And the, it's such a, it's been such an amazing group of people. I've had so much fun.

Yeah. There are, talking to great Community and meeting the attendees here. It's been great.

So I would highly recommend that everyone be here. Victoria Espinel. What?

You, you know what? I need a website for your company. Oh, Great.

org. Check it out. We're here at Swamp Up.

We're gonna be back with some more guests in just a moment. But I don't know if we, this might be the highlight of the day. We'll be back in a moment.