Women in Engineering – Aviva Peisach, Wix

This is Techstrong tv. Hi, welcome. I have the great pleasure today being joined by Aviva, and I'm gonna let her pronounce her her last name, who is a mentor coach, um, and also an an advocate, uh, within the Wix, women in Engineering, uh, community.

And we're celebrating, uh, what's happening and, and, uh, supporting, uh, bringing more people into the industry and supporting people that are already involved in, in engineering. And I'm excited to talk with you of You are welcome. Hello, Mitch.

I'm very happy to be here as well. And my last name is actually Pesa, so I'm a Viva Pesa. Yes, it is hard to pronounce, which write some exercises before didn't work out very well.

Um, so, uh, Mitch, do you want to hear about what I do today? Yeah, I'd love to hear a bit about yourself. Yeah.

And then, we'll then, Todd, let's talk about, uh, that your work in, uh, women in engineering. Sounds good. Okay.

So I'm Aviva Pesa, and currently I have two roles within Wix. Uh, Wix is a, a platform for building your business presence on, uh, it's an Israeli company, but we are very widespread. Um, and I have two roles within, uh, Wix.

I'm both, uh, heading a company, uh, which is a, an equivalent of a department, I guess, with other organizations, uh, uh, called the Wix Identity. So I'm heading all the development related to authentication and authorization within Wix. Uh, in addition to that, I'm the head of the Server Guild, which is the professional community of all our server developers.

So I head all the knowledge sharing community activities in there, and we're spread over, um, 400. We have 450, uh, server developers across weeks against spread globally. So it's an exciting and challenging role to have in addition to running a company and the r and d within a company.

That's fantastic. Um, you know, I myself have, uh, have, and I still do today, lead engineering groups. And, uh, you know, one of the things I've learned over my career is how you support each person in their background and their experiences.

And of course, you know, we, we place much greater emphasis on helping people get into our community who are not represen haven't been, but represented in the past, women, people of color, things like that. And so I've learned as a white male that, um, well, that I never know that experience, but I can be an advocate, uh, and also learned. And so that one of the great benefits about talking with you is I, is I get to hear and, and talk with you and, and learn from what you're doing to help others.

And that might also could also help me in my day-to-day work too. So I'd love to hear you talk about what you're doing with Wix and, and the groups that you, that you bring together, and also the kind of personal mentoring and coaching that you might do with women in engineering. Um, so gladly I can start with telling like, about what I'm doing in these, uh, arenas, and then we can go through the story of how I got to actually do that.

Great. And the perspectives I've, uh, yeah. Gathered along the way.

And so what I do today, like in the extra curriculum activities, in my extra curriculum activities is, uh, first of all, I lead the form of, uh, women in tech, uh, in Israel, uh, which is a forum I established six and a half years ago, around six and a half years ago. Uh, and what we do there is actually a series of, uh, meetups we meet every two months or so. Uh, it's open to the general public.

It's called Women in Tech, but it's open for everyone, male and female. And, uh, in each of these, uh, meetups, we actually deal with, uh, topics in both diversity, diversity and inclusion and empowerment. Uh, which could be talks about how to advance your career, uh, how to, uh, promote your, uh, your brand, your own brand, how to prepare for interviews, uh, everything around career management and, and growth, um, and also about diversity.

So how to encourage diversity within an organization. And so that's one, uh, type of, uh, talks. And the other type of talks is technology, because this is what we're about, and this is our passion.

Uh, so there's always a, a technical talk, typically exposing new areas and giving people a taste of specific areas within technology that they can enter. Um, so it happens every, uh, two months. The, uh, the crowd is, is changing, uh, uh, so some people, uh, make sure they, uh, uh, they show up for every meetup.

Others like occasionally come and, but it really makes an impact in, in people attending and in their lives sometimes, uh, because it opens them up to, uh, new opportunities, new ways of thinking, making them understand they're not alone. So it's a community and opportunities being generated from actually meeting and talking about these areas. Um, so that's one activity in that area.

And the other is, uh, quite recent. So this year I started teaching within my daughter's, uh, school, and she's in the fourth grade. Uh, and I started teaching coding, uh, because I think this is an amazing age to catch everyone.

First of all, it was really important for me, uh, to show the girls like a role model of women in this, uh, area, because unfortunately, we're still a minority. Uh, and, um, like this is where it starts. It starts earlier with perceptions that we, we all have, uh, a different like tendency of girls versus boys to be in STEM and, and, uh, studies and, and to do, uh, things, uh, that are related to, to engineering.

Uh, but, uh, also girls that don't have company of other girls would be hesitant to start doing, uh, things that are related to, to STEM areas. So this gives an, an amazing opportunity of girls to shine and be surrounded with their friends. And, and again, they're, you can see, you can see the impact and the, and passion, right, right, right away.

They're equally like the boys and girls are equally passionate, equally creative in her, everything that has to do with, uh, with code. So that's, I guess the second, uh, activity, extracurricular activity. And the third is, uh, I provide, uh, mentor mentorship sessions for free, uh, because I really, uh, enjoy, uh, knowledge sharing, both hearing people's, uh, challenges, sharing my lessons learned, and finding a task together.

Um, and this is something that we're doing within Wix as well. Like some of our, uh, top engineering managers are providing mentorship, uh, sessions. Anyone can sign up.

Always happy to talk. Good. Very cool.

Uh, I'm, I'm curious, are there, I I can totally get how wanting to be in community with other, other people who are experiencing similar things or wanting to, to, to learn from each other and share ideas and, and get feedback. Is there, is there typically, um, a need that people come with most often? Is it about a career and finding job or interviewing, or is it just, Hey, I'm surrounded with a lot of people who are not like me and I'm looking for others, you know, other women in technology that I can be in community with?

Is there tend to be, uh, more of a driver one way or another that brings people to your, to your groups and sessions and, and also mentoring with you? I think the community part is a, is a byproduct in, uh, some way, um, because it's mainly about giving people tools. Okay.

So like we decide, uh, ahead of time what we're going to touch on, uh, within the next meter or so. Uh, and then people that join know, know the topic, know that this is something of interest to them. Okay.

Uh, so we're, when we're talking about brand presence, creating, uh, presentations or, uh, writing, uh, blog posts. So this is what people would, uh, uh, would come into listen into, uh, or spec or when we talk about the specific, uh, uh, technology. Um, but the connections, uh, are created along the way.

Okay. Because these are two sessions, but there's also, uh, like the time beforehand and in between where people actually make contact. And like, I encourage people to do so, to do some small talk and, and get to, to talk and, uh, and reach out to people that they don't know that they didn't come in with.

Um, so I think it, it it's both, it's both, uh, the, uh, the tools, the practical tools that they, uh, get from these, uh, sessions. Uh, but also the, the sense that they're not alone. Again, because we're a min a minority in the, uh, in the engineering world, whenever women are in the workplace, they will be the minority.

Okay? Uh, but in these, uh, type of, uh, meetups, it's all women, or 95% women, because as I said, it's open to all, and we always have a five to 10%, uh, male as well. Um, they understand they're not alone.

They're not alone. Other people are experiencing similar things, and that, uh, empowers them. I'm, I'm curious, is, do you think it's that, um, women in technology aren't, aren't getting the same skills, uh, the way that males do in the workplace?

Or is it that you need additional things to maybe help stand out or market yourself or clearly or, or differentiate what your skills are? Is, is it things that the system isn't, isn't providing, or, or there's other things that you need? That's an interesting question.

I think first of all, these empowerment tools are relevant to, to everyone. These are not women specific, uh, environmental and progressing your career. Uh, but I think, uh, women are more, first of all, just the fact that we are a minority already puts us in, uh, a worse situation than the majority, right?

Because people would hire, uh, people tend to hire people that are similar to them, okay? Mm-hmm. Uh, and men would come into the engineering world with more contacts and people to, to reach out to women less, uh, whenever they're interviewed.

Um, again, devices come in, uh, from the interviewer side. Uh, so it's more challenging there. And also it's more challenging, uh, promoting yourself, uh, when you are a minority, because there are no role man models.

Okay? And again, because of biases, because if people are, uh, used to having, uh, male managers, okay, it's, uh, it's something that's not revealed for them to have women, uh, as managers. Okay?

So, um, so every advance advancement is like against the bias, therefore it's more challenging. Uh, and there are many studies that, uh, show that women have more of a tendency to wait till they get a promotion. For instance, they feel they need to like, work hard and, uh, wait for the opportunity to come until they, they'll get it when they deserve it.

Okay? And men have the opposite tendency. Like, men tend to feel they know what they're worth and just go get it.

Mm-hmm. So I think our, like, the way we're educated and our default thinking is a bit different. Okay.

Therefore, it is important to have a focus on women in this case or on minor, other minorities giving them the tools. Okay. Cause for, for others it might be, uh, and more, I, I dunno, trivial or less needed.

Well, I, I like, I like what you're saying about, you know, the tools that, that would help you in your career in advancement. Um, and I really, I really relate to what you were saying about your network, right? Because my own experience through my career, and maybe can think of one time where I was hired, and it wasn't because of my network, every other job was because of the network that you have.

And if you don't have a network, that's a huge disadvantage. Matter of fact, I think even during covid, that it, that exacerbated that that disadvantage because we weren't together networking, right? We, we were trying to do over Zoom, and it's not the same, right?

Mm-hmm. So I think just that network alone is a huge disadvantage, at least. Mm-hmm.

It's, it's certainly helped me in my career. I can't imagine not having that. So it seems like that that is something that, uh, in addition to Wix, that, um, you know, males in the work environment, male leaders can help too, right?

That that's not a hard thing to do, is, is introduce people to your network, connect people with people, helping people, you know, through those relationships. That's part of the benefit of your network, not just for yourself, but what you can do to help others. Definitely.

And if we look at the organization perspective, okay, uh, people who want to bring in more, uh, women need to, uh, do like to actively, uh, act in order to get them. So this is different sourcing, like reaching out to communities of women in tech. Like you need to work harder to get, uh, to get these leads because it is a, it, it is still a minority.

We're still a minority. It is changing, gradually changing. And I'm very optimistic that, uh, we will reach equality, actually equality in there, uh, but, uh, organization, have organizations have the obligation to actively act on it.

It, it won't come, um, just with, uh, by itself. Um, maybe I can share the journey of, uh, um, of how I got to, uh, to do these exactly kinda activities, uh, because I started off very similarly to your perspective. Uh, I wasn't, uh, a white, uh, male, but, uh, I was think thinking as such, um, because, uh, uh, gender, uh, race were never like something I paid any attention to.

Um, I come from a family where both my parents are, uh, uh, electrical engineers, okay? And we were raised, uh, to, to understand there's no difference. Like, this was never an issue.

Uh, and therefore, during my studies and during my career, I never, never treated it as an issue. Uh, and I was saying, okay, I'm like, I'm all for equality. And I, uh, this is how I, uh, uh, interview people.

This is how I, uh, recruit people. And, and I, I didn't even hear or was part of any conversation that has to, that deal to do with diversity. Okay?

The first place I actually encountered this, this type of, uh, discussion, uh, was when I joined Wix seven years back. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, my immediate reaction was the pushback, like antagonism to this.

Why are you talking about diversity? Why are you talking about difference between men and women? There is no difference.

And by talking about it, you're making an issue out of it. Um, so that was my immediate, uh, reaction. Uh, and then I was approached by, uh, we have a department here called the Academy that has, that are organizing all the meetups and, uh, conference, uh, conferences, et cetera.

Uh, and I was asked to, uh, to come and speak for, uh, in a women's, uh, meetup. Uh, and again, my immediate reaction was push back. Okay?

Uh, I was saying, why is there a meetup for women? What do you want me to talk about? Do you want me to come up and say like, I'm a woman in engineering and step down from the stage?

And she was saying, like, the person who was trying to get me to to speak was saying, uh, no, I want you to talk about, uh, like how he broke the glass ceiling, things like that. Uh, no, I don't believe in a glass ceiling. Okay?

So I can't talk about breaking any glass ceilings. Um, so my immediate reaction was saying, no, like, no way I'm going to take part in something like this. But then when I felt that, uh, like, uh, this, these negative feelings are, are void up, I understood that something is hiding there.

Okay? So I said, yes, I'll do it. Okay.

And then I went on a journey of research, okay? And both kind of an academic research understanding, like what's the, what are the statistics? What are the numbers, what are the challenges, uh, et cetera.

And also, I went back and had conversations, uh, with, uh, my female friends in engineering where up till that point, we never talked about diversity. Like we never talked about being women in an engineering world. It, it was not a subject.

Uh, so I raised it as a subject. And there were two takeaways from that journey. First of all, did I did the meetup, and eventually I, I started to lead like the series of, uh, meetings, but meetups.

But, uh, like the main takeaways is were, first of all, I was talking to one of, uh, one of the women engineers, uh, and she was saying like, I was like you, but then I, I got a chance to be a part of, uh, an organization where they had equal number of, uh, male and female, and the atmosphere was totally different. Like mm-hmm. And right.

And I, you cannot aspire to something you don't know even exists or is different from, from your day to day, right? Mm-hmm. So that was one takeaway.

And the other takeaway was understanding that I didn't, I didn't feel the challenge. I didn't feel the difference. I didn't feel like someone treated me like otherwise be otherwise because I was a woman.

And even if they did, I didn't care. Okay. But others didn't feel that way.

Okay. And the other thing I learned is there's actually a name for that, which is the second generation gender bias syndrome. Mm-hmm.

Which is, uh, women who actually succeeded in, uh, the engineering world or any, any place, uh, else don't feel there's a problem, and therefore they are not reaching out and helping women at the beginning of their journey. Okay? And that was like a heartbreak for me, like realizing I had that I was there because what it meant is I had a huge blind spot and I wasn't reaching out and helping other women.

Like, and the reason I'm in engineering and the reason I am managing engineering is the people and the empowerment of the people. Um, so I, I realized that I have a huge blind spot there, and I need to change and I need to act. Okay.

Which is the reason I decided to, uh, establish this, uh, this form. It's a really good, I mean, you, you said several things that I, that I really connect with. One is, I think generationally how we, how people think they're supposed to behave about women in the workplace, especially women, is by calling attention to it, you're calling attention to a problem that you shouldn't call attention to.

It should be just, if you work hard, you'll get the same advantages and advancement as as, as, uh, the majority in the workplace, which is not true. That doesn't work that way, as we know, right? I mean, just working is just as hard.

Sometimes even harder doesn't mean that that's necessarily gonna happen. Um, I also really relate to what you said about, about hiring. And I know my own experiences, uh, that I've seen, I've experienced myself and also seen happen with other hiring managers is, well, I didn't hire any women, cuz I did, I didn't get any candidates.

Well, you didn't make that happen. You have to go find those candidates, right? And you just can't wait for someone to serve a list of you of people and great, there's there women candidates send it to.

If, if that happens, great, but if it doesn't, it's your job as a hiring manager to build the diverse team that you, you know, aspire to have. And just because that group of people didn't show up, or some people from that group didn't show up in candidates time for you to go look. So I found you have to make a conscious effort mm-hmm.

To go find people to be part of that hiring process. And guess what? You'll hire, you'll hire women.

It'll, it'll Have, we actually had a, an an amazing example of that recently, very, actually now because we are running a program of, uh, students. Okay. Uh, and, uh, this is an amazing entry point to make sure that we have, uh, as many women as we can.

By the way, the the situation in new universities now is much better than it used to be five years ago, 10 years ago and, and 20 years ago. So, uh, there, there are universities where there is actually equality now, like 50%, uh, uh, of the students are, uh, uh, women, which is amazing. Uh, but we made a conscious, uh, effort to reach out and find women as part of, uh, of this recruitment process.

And we managed, like I think the, our, uh, ratio now within Wix is around 20% women in engineering, like core, uh, practices, which is higher than the, uh, average and still, uh, could be much better. And in this round of, uh, recruitment of students, we got 44% women candidates. Mm-hmm.

That's fair. So it works. Yeah.

Yeah. It, it, um, something else that you were, you talked about, um, is part of the advancement process. You know, as I mentioned earlier, this, this isn't just about working as hard or harder than, you know, others in the, in the, in the work environment.

What kind of coaching, um, do you try to give people about that, right? Because, you know, I don't wanna call attention to myself, but I maybe the male counterparts in my work environment, they certainly are comfortable doing it. So how do you, how do you help someone do that who may not be at least initially comfortable with bringing more attention to themselves in a, in a positive way?

So, uh, I think it's, first of all, being conscious about it. Okay. Being conscious about the fact that hard work is not enough and, and part of the hard work needs to be spread out to making sure you make the opportunities for yourself.

Okay? So it's both creating a, a very good relationship with your manager and making sure, first of all, that you know what you aspire to. Then they know, uh, what you aspire to and become your partners in it.

Second is the networking. Working on the networking, uh, and making sure you, again, people know, uh, what it is you do, what it is you're strong in, and what it is you're looking for. And opportunities would come out from, uh, from there as well.

Uh, and like more practically, it's, it's just coaching people through, uh, the discussions they're, they're having with their, they're going to have with their managers. Okay. Because, uh, it could feel again to anyone, uh, it could feel very uncomfortable to come and talk about your achievements and your wishes and your aspirations, uh, both in interviews and then also like on an ongoing basis with, uh, uh, with your manager.

But, uh, once you practice makes perfect, right? So, uh, once you do these simulations and gradually feel com more and more comfortable talking about these things, you'll eventually do that comfortably or more comfortably for me to make You do role plate with, with people that you coach. I would imagine that a lot mm-hmm.

Going in and asking for that raise, not being equipped for that conversation could be scary, very scary for anybody, especially, uh, if you're not comfortable with that conversation. Right? So I, my my employee, like whenever they come in and ask for it and, and they typically talk about how uncomfortable it, it feels.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So I really encourage them that they've done the right thing and the worst case scenario is maybe they won't get a raise, but, uh, but on the upside, like if they wouldn't have mentioned it, there's a big chance.

Not necessarily they would've got. Um, so yes, so it's both role playing and also what I try to do on a, on a day-to-day basis. How about, um, equity and con and compensation?

Um, one of the things I've struggled with is trying to catch someone up who is underpaid to, uh, ongoing increases in salary. That's, that's hard because it's hard to get enough move ahead enough that they catch up in a relatively short period of time, cuz it could take years to try to get to that point. It seems like it never happens.

And I've found if you could do it, um, find out what, what, what the compensation should be and put the person at that, at that level, even if it's a big jump mm-hmm. Just put them there because, uh, if you force them to try to do that over time, a they probably won't get there and b, they'll leave anyway. Uh, either frustration about that or because of opportunity that is, is better compensating, which, what's your experience?

I agree. This is something we actually try to do consciously in weeks all the time, both in aspects of diversity, uh, to make sure that there are no, again, uh, implicit biases. And if there are, uh, we make sure we, uh, we work to fix it.

Uh, and also on an ongoing basis, we make sure that, uh, there is no like, uh, under compensation, which is not related to the actual, uh, performance. This is actually one of the things the guild remember, the community and of, uh, server developers that I manage. This is what we, uh, we do as well.

Making sure there are no, uh, discrepancies, un just a discrepancy. And sometimes being armed with information just helps. Right?

I know where I should be compensated at so that way I know what it should be asking for. Yep. And, and like the information is qui is quite easy to access today, any information.

Mm-hmm. Talk about the value of role models. You, you mentioned about, you know, the first time you were asked to get up and talk and is it just to, to be up there and then step down?

So someone sees me, um, cuz I have heard said multiple times for, from, you know, people of color, uh, women in the workplace, there is value in seeing someone attaining, uh, advancement and attaining levels and position, responsibility, authority, uh, to say that, okay, it can be done, I can do it too. What do I need to do? I get myself there.

Yeah, I definitely agree. You know, there's just saying, uh, you can't be what you can see. Mm-hmm.

And it really, really applies in the workspace. And, uh, again, children, uh, adult, uh, getting into adulthood and thinking of what are their actual opportunities and options. You have to have role models.

And again, when you are a minority, that minority needs to be even more active and than usual in making sure that they are seen. Okay. So it's, uh, uh, like speaking in, uh, in conferences and speaking in, uh, in, uh, meetups, this is, uh, these are really, really important, uh, opportunities.

But what, what inspires you to keep doing the work? Because I'm sure not everyone you coach attains the things they'd like to attain. I, I'm sure some do, but maybe it's those, the people that do help inspire you to keep going, or maybe it's the people you know, still can get there and, and do you want to help them more?

What is it that keeps you engaged and passionate about this? Just seeing the impact. Okay.

The cascading impact. Um, I think the most, I guess inspiring thing that, uh, happened as part of this com of this community of, uh, women in tech is that, um, like, first of all, people are really impacted. Okay.

So I have many, many stories of, uh, of women that came in, in a junction if, for choosing, deciding to leave the current role or going and being, being interviewed in a, for other roles or asking for this promotion. And the specific talk in the specific meetup really opened their eyes and gave them the courage to actually do it. So like the immediate impact is, uh, is very strong, but even stronger than that is, like immediately I have, uh, people attending coming to me and saying, how can I help?

Okay, I really want to mentor as well. I can mentor students or I can mentor high school, uh, girls. Um, so the cascading impact is, uh, is what keeps me going and keeps me passionate and optimistic.

And the results, again, we see results. I'm in, I'm like dealing with this field for the last, uh, seven uh, years. Uh, and I have a talk that I keep doing in, uh, different forums, like, uh, different women in tech sessions that are being done in different organizations in different arenas.

And I have a slide talking about the percentage of, uh, women in, uh, in core engineering. Uh, and I keep updating this number like every year by 2%, which is mind blowing. So, results, That's great progress.

I mean, that is progress, not, not enough, but it's great progress. Um, so still a little bit of time for one more question. I'm curious in mentoring relationships and working with people, um, you know, we often don't talk about there are benefits to the mentor of doing that work, right?

You get some things from it, you learn things from people. I just had someone comment to me today of, oh, you're much more experienced. I, I I I can only learn from you.

I'm like, no, if we're on this journey together, I can, can learn just as much from you. What are some of the, the things that you've gained maybe you didn't even expect to gain from, uh, from the work that you're doing for you personally? So that is an excellent question, and I actually wrote a blog post describing the different benefits and, uh, lessons learned from, uh, coaching and doing mentorship, uh, uh, sessions.

But I think that every, in every encounter, uh, you learn something new. Uh, again, unless you come in to preach, uh, your world or, and your, and your perception. Uh, so if you listen, you'll definitely gain an additional perspective, uh, an additional environment and use cases that you didn't encounter, uh, before.

Uh, and it actually helps you also kind of sharpen your added value. Um, where can I help? Where can I assist?

How to ask better questions, uh, to get to the actual, uh, intent of, uh, of the person you are speaking to, how to be a better listener. Keyword listening, right? It's so easy to give advice and that's not always helpful, right?

Sometimes you just need, so certainly to understand and learn, you have to listen, right? You can't, you can't learn by talking. At least I can also give, also giving advice is not actually empowering the person, uh, you're talking with.

Mm-hmm. I think it's more about, uh, helping them understand, uh, what it is they're looking for, what it is that they're missing, what can they do that would help them. And because this is a practice, they can apply by themselves.

I think a good mentor is a mentor that is eventually not needed. Mm-hmm. Well, it's, it is a good point.

Uh, oftentimes mentoring is just asking the right questions to help think through, right? And kinda help someone's thinking and understanding. And oftentimes they might know what to do, but there's so many other things in there kind of getting in the way or, or not, you know, the clarity of what to do might not be readily apparent.

Or maybe it's confirmation too, but not you telling them, but them. Okay. That makes sense.

I know what I should do. Right? Yeah.

Very good. Well, vivo, this has been great talking with you. And, um, thank you for the work that you're doing, helping, helping people in the workplace and in their careers and, and, uh, helping, uh, increase the population of women in the workplace, but not just in numbers, but in, in creating environment where it really is an accepting, it is a welcoming, it's an embracing and, um, vibrant en environment for people to work.

That's really ultimately what matters, right? It's not just a numbers game. Okay.

And thank you Mitch, for this opportunity to talk about all of these things. Absolutely. Hopefully inspire others.

Absolutely. Where can folks find out more? Maybe they wanna reach out to you about some coaching or wanna find out about, uh, Wix and meetings and things that might be happening?

Definitely. We'll share the link, uh, where you can, where people can, uh, book, uh, a mentorship session and also read more about their activities. That would be wonderful.

Okay, good. We'll include that in the link. Thank you again.

It's great. Fantastic talking with you. Look forward to, hopefully we have a chance to do this again.

Okay. Thank you.