Revisiting the 2023 Cloud Native Trends | Cloud Native Now 2023

Hi everybody. Welcome to Cloud Native now, or you've probably been here all day at this point since we are on the afternoon, uh, aspect of that, hopefully you're enjoying the show. Uh, we're gonna do something a little different here, something you don't really see a lot of research folks go through.

Um, and I guess before we should go and do that, we should probably introduce our right. So I'm Mike Rothman. I run Textron Research.

I'm, I'm the general manager there. I'm joined by Mitch Ashley. Mitch, why don't you at least talk to you, cuz you don't want be associated with Textron research anymore.

No, no worries. Got that idea. Hey, I got, I got the t-shirt and everything, so I know.

I'm Mitch Ashley, principal with Textron Research and what Mike's referring to is my other job is being CTO with Textron Group and kind of doing a lot of that stuff, which is really nice cuz they, they tend to have really blend together well. So Yes, they do. But I get to Work with Mike, so that's the best part.

That's right. So, so where, so, so where I was, was, uh, we're doing something a little different in this panel. We're actually gonna go back and revisit the cloud native trends that we published back in January at the Predict 2023 conference.

Again, you don't see that very often. Most of the time folks just, you know, put some stuff out there and they kind of forget that they even wrote it and, and never go back and, and get a sense of, of where you're at or, uh, again, what was accurate, what wasn't accurate. So we thought it would be pretty interesting to go back and see what we thought was gonna happen, uh, in January and see what really where we are.

Right. You know, kind of half the year through. Um, and again, you know, if you remember, and it's really hard to remember what happened in January, right?

Chat, G P t wasn't even really a thing in January. Well, yeah, it, it was released, but it didn't really catch fire until, uh, you know, a couple months after that. Now that's all you hear about is generative ai.

And of course we're gonna be all over that as well. So you'll hear plenty, uh, from us. Uh, but, you know, so our kind of general theme for Cloud Native in 2023 is what we were calling the long March, right?

And that was the fact that, you know, it takes a long time for organizations to both get comfortable and get ready in order to use kind of a new technology substrate, right? So the, the example that, that Mitch used was really the lamp stack, right? It took 10 years for the lamp stack to really become kind of the standard for how you're gonna build those three-tier web applications or a couple of years into this, um, cloud native, you know, really open source type of, uh, environment type of migration.

Um, and it's going faster than we've seen before, but it's still, there's a lot of stuff that has to happen in order for us to get there. So, before we dive into the actual trends, right, we have four of them, maybe five. I I lose count five, Trent.

So, um, before we kind of dive into that, Mitch, any, any kind of thoughts about, you know, kind of what we've seen so far in 2023 before we dive into the specifics? You know, I think, uh, the one adder I would have to our thinking the, you know, we can always bring in AI too, but the edge is coming up a lot as I'm talking with both customers users and technology vendors, um, and also kind of dynamic environments where you can set up an entire cloud native environment application, um, on sort of white label hardware, if you have. Think about that in the old model.

Um, but drive the person personality from the network. So meaning people are looking for not just serverless, but kind of dynamic infrastructure with cloud native stack on it. And that, that's tending to as a new, uh, an element I hadn't seen as strongly before.

I know you've been all over about the edge and the importance of it, and I'm with you there too, but it's good to hear more things about it. So, Yeah. Yeah.

And, and you know, again, this idea of being able to write to one set of interfaces, really leverage, you know, kind of one general construct and have it deployed in a number of different ways based upon the use case, right? That's all about flexibility. It's all about really making sure that you can do what you need to do when you need to do it, where it needs to be, right?

And that's really about the flexibility and the agility that organizations need. And that's one of the big attractions of cloud native infrastructure. So, without further ado, trend number one, right?

No derailing the Kubernetes train, right? So Kubernetes is a thing. It's, it's running headlong, you know, through everybody's, uh, environment.

What was interesting is that we recently did a pulse meter and we asked about Kubernetes versus container, you know, basically other container eyes type of platforms. I, I don't remember the data off the top of my head cuz of old and in sil and lack of gray matter at this point. Um, but it was clear that Kubernetes was the leading option there, but there was a bunch of, you know, kind of Docker and other, you know, assorted, uh, other, you know, kind of container platforms, OpenShift and, and, um, y you know, kind of, uh, some of the other, uh, environments that, that are there.

So yes, Kubernetes is certainly, you know, prevalent and it's really where a lot of folks are moving toward. They're moving towards managed services for that. So that's your Amazon a, uh, e k s, your Azure, a k s, your Google Kubernetes, uh, engine or service or whatever.

It's that they call that, um, on that. So you're starting to see really Kubernetes become kind of that platform that you need. But the two aspects of that are making sure that you can deploy it faster and you can deploy it consistently because it's not simple, right?

That's the big problem with Kubernetes is that it is still very complicated for, uh, most folks to actually use and get, you know, environments and, and pods and the like up and running. So what, what do we think about that one? Mitchie?

You know, we were right on that one. We Were right. We have some nice data.

Yeah, I think another, I think that was pretty low hanging, pre prediction, but that's okay. We need, we need a few, always, Always start with the, with the sandbag man. Always start With the sandbag.

Too much pushback on that. But, um, we have some other data. Maybe we can include a link to some pulse meters cuz we have a pulse meter document, um, on this that we did recently that showed, if I remember my numbers right, it was 41% of respondents said that they had 50% or more of their applications containerized and using Kubernetes.

Um, and that was, I think there was around a 2 50, 300 response poll. Um, so it's not the universe of everybody, but it's people that are, you know, across our sites and part of our audience. Um, and then there was a little bit of a smaller 18% who was kind of in that between 25 and 50% of their apps.

And then another big chunk, I believe it was like 27% or more who were in that one to 25%. So meaning early pushes had made a lot of big progress moving to Kubernetes. A lot of people pushing into it now in a middle ground, a little bit less so that have been added, you know, kind of in that middler fashion.

So we actually have some data to back up Yeah. Our prediction and that's just one of 'em. I know we have more, like you're, you're talking about You bet.

So, and, and it's happening, right? And, and it's happening. So, and, and to me, the interesting thing, especially in, in talking to a bunch of folks too, is that there really isn't a great appetite to build your own stacks anymore.

So yes, there's still a whole mess of stuff that happens on-prem. There's still a bunch of, you know, containerized environments that folks have been playing around with for, for a long time. But when you start really thinking about migrating to a truly cloud native stack, a a, a truly open source type of environment, um, for the most part, folks are looking at managed services to be able to do that.

But one of the things to track, and this will be interesting as we get towards the end of the year and we start revisiting our trends for 2023, uh, 2024 at that point, which is do we start to feel the backlash of folks starting to move workloads back on premises because of cost? Right? And because they start to realize that, you know what, I still have a bunch of, uh, hardware that I could use, uh, and repurpose for these things, uh, and be a little bit more flexible, but that would be driven by cost.

And I think a lot of that has to do with, uh, the macro economics. If we're still struggling, if we still have a lot of industries with in, you know, economic headwinds, if it inflation doesn't, you know, moderate, I do think we will start to see folks look to optimize their spend much more aggressively than they would have in the past. Agree.

I think we're in that, I think we're in that phase where it's, it's happening whether you're modernizing or cloud native or going to the cloud, all the above numbers are getting looked at closely. That's right. Alright, trend number two, Kubernetes is not a toy, right?

So this is the idea that yeah, there's a bunch of open source stuff out there and there's some management tools, but at the end of the day, that comfort that we were talking about, right? That understanding that you can run enterprise class workloads in this type of environment requires a number of things, right? It requires tooling, it requires trust, and it requires visibility.

So where are we at with those kind of things? Do we see y you know, kind of the, the tooling maturing as we had, uh, anticipated? And again, we're only halfway done with the year, so mm-hmm.

You know, I don't wanna sit here and, and kind of claim victory or defeat, you know, quite yet. Um, but there do certainly does seem to be a number of solutions. But I do think that the issues with VC land, right, you know, kind of the availability of funding is going to, I don't wanna say sty, but certainly slow down some of the innovation that we've seen, you know, certainly on the management tool side.

So I, you know, I guess I, you know, certainly on the tooling side, I do think there are solutions out there. Um, but I don't know that we've made, you know, the progress that I, that I was hoping for. Well, it's, I think people are still on this journey, right?

And Kubernetes skillset comes up again and again in polls and surveys and things that we do as, as a big issue. I think one of the signs of Kubernetes is kind of the big gorilla, right? And the small gorilla is K three s, which, um, I believe came outta suse and Microsoft actually adopted it, uh, support for it in Azure, which I thought was pretty, pretty substantial.

Uh, and I think a lot of people look at that as, and it's not the training wheels version, it's just, I don't need everything that is in Kubernetes and it's, that's the entire dashboard. I just need, you know, a, a a, it's an environment to build from. So, well, it's not a toy, it is kind of the big, the big thing.

And we're looking for maybe a little lighter weight truck than the, the big, uh, diesel 3,500 Ford or Chevy or whatever you got. Okay? Yeah, you bet.

You bet. Um, so, alright, trust. So let, let's talk a little bit about SBOs, right?

Because obviously that's one of the key things that, you know, folks starting to get comfortable with the software that they're embedding in. Y y you know, we've talking a lot about, you know, kind of the pipelines that we use to drive the containerized, uh, environment and making sure that we've got, you know, kind of embedded security within, you know, those specific pipelines, uh, could get some of those operational things that we were just talking about relative to, you know, some of the tooling, but to make sure that the underlying environment is, is patched and updated, uh, and secure from that standpoint that we've got the right IAM policies in place so that the wrong folks don't get into Kubernetes. Uh, you know, 1, 1, 1 perspective on this is, you know, we, we haven't been talking as much about SBOs, which usually means folks are starting to do it, right?

So you just have, you know, the tools they pop out the thing. I don't know that anybody's looking at it. I don't know that anybody's had, you know, kind of a, an issue where they've gotten into trouble with their regulators because, you know, they haven't, uh, had, you know, a certain list, uh, on that front.

Um, so I, I do think that, you know, kind of from a trust standpoint, we are, you know, kind of thinking about the tools in the right place. But I want to jump on something that you had said before, Mitch, and that was about the skills problem. Mm-hmm.

And or gap or, you know, kind of requirement or what have you. I I, you know, we still have just way too much to do and not enough people that understand what the hell is going on to do it, which ultimately will result in security issues, configuration issues, operational issues along those lines. So I think we are making progress, but I think we still, y you know, that's kind of the downside.

We don't really talk about that too much, but not having folks to do it, yeah, it means you can't roll out your stuff as fast as you want to, but it also means that you could possibly have, you know, kind of infrastructure challenges both from a security and an operational standpoint unless you, you know, figure that out. Here's a nice place where it intersects really well with cloud native is that to do cloud, native to containerize something, you have to have a manifesto, if you will, of what goes in the container and then what sort of the ins and outs, ress and egress, which is the start, as well as what you do through your C I C D pipeline and source management and all that stuff. So I don't think people, I don't think it's a big lift to go from where we are to producing SBOs.

The big question for everybody is what do I do with it other than at here's my attestations to prove to federal government, whoever contractually that I do it. The, the really big question is, is the receiver gonna do anything with the sbo? At least right now.

And the best analogy I heard was you probably don't look at the ingredient LA ingredients label on what you eat most of the time until you hear there's a food poisoning thing here or something here that you need to this kind of sugar, you shouldn't have this bad. You'll go back and look at, okay, here's the software, this is how I can go find out more easily. Not perfect yet, but what's going on?

So I, I think we're still in that walk phase with SBOs and how we use them. You bet. And, and to be clear, I I am being a little bit kind of disingenuous from the standpoint that we called the whole damn trend document the long march, and I was sitting there evaluating it six months later where, right.

So, so I mean we're, We're, that's just my, that's just my problem focus Directionally, right? Because I don't, I don't know that any of us expected us to be there y you know, six months later. So, so we do have to keep that within the right context.

Uh, but that's a good point. And, and the third piece to this, you know, trend number two is observability. We've got a whole trend later on, you know, for that.

So I don't wanna spend a lot of time on observability, cuz we will get into that. So next trend organizing to scale cloud native applications. So this is the idea and, and this is all concept that we talk about, the, the center of excellence and really having a group that's responsible for best practices and standards and, and making sure that folks understand how to leverage some of these technologies so that the application teams, the DevOps teams don't have to be expert in the underlying functions yet they can, you know, continue to be productive.

Uh, and I do think, you know, kind of the drive towards platform engineering, we're hearing a lot more about that, you know, infrastructure is code and how do I start leveraging that? Whether you use the flavor that comes from your cloud provider, whether you use something from a a, an open source and or commercial ish type of company like Hashi, uh, that can do a, a whole mess of this stuff with Terra Terraform. Um, we, we do see folks that are trying to standardize their environment because the anarchy of early adoption will run out of gas, right?

And because of a technology that is so complicated, right? So complicated, if you don't have someone in there making sure you've got the right iam, right the right networking, uh, kind of fabric in there, the right kinds of, of transit environment to protect y y you know, the right kind of load balancing in front of it to make sure that, uh, it scales. I mean, again, it just becomes very difficult to, um, do this if you have to reinvent the wheel every time.

So, so I, I do think that, that we have a, a number of initiatives that are helping with this. Does this again, play into the whole skills issue? Of course, but at least folks are starting to think the right way because what we're doing is we are replaying what we did in Cloudland, right?

And in Cloudland we kind of fued around and we built a whole mess of different things. And then at some point you realize, wow, we really need to standardize what a lot of these design patterns look like. It seems that we've learned from that, uh, and that folks are starting to try to adopt some of these patterns would be a little bit more strategic about what that looks like.

I think one of those patterns, not to jump on the platform engineering bandwagon, that that's a fine bandwagon to be on, but this platform concept of let's standardize this is all the things that go in it, we can manage that as a thing itself while we're managing all the applications and scaling more apps on the same or similar kind of architecture and technology. So that platform, platform mindset, I think is a real, is somebody that's catching on, uh, for folks to, whether they're doing platform engineering or not, uh, applying some of those principles and being a little more disciplined about it. Try to get outta that chaos you're talking about.

That's right. You know, anarchy is not good for anybody, right? So, so I think, you know, having some structure around there is increasingly important.

Yet how much of this stuff is documented? How much of this stuff are we kind of muddling through? I don't know.

Right? But, you know, it's, it's probably much more muddling through and learning through each one of these different initiatives and trying, but the mentality is there and not the mentality. Like there are some large, you know, very structured, highly regulated environments where they've got a whole architecture group and the, and their whole line of business is to generate 50 page architectural and best practices guides for the rest of the organization to basically ignore, right?

We're not talking about that, right? We're talking about real practical advice on what works and what doesn't in these environments. How do you integrate, you know, things like some of these past services, your snowflake and your, your data bricks, uh, on the data management, uh, side.

So, so really again, I do think that folks are thinking about this, uh, in the right way, but this is another one where it is a journey, right? It is a journey. You are not gonna get there, uh, overnight.

We're gonna kind of talk about this again at predict 2024 and yeah, well hopefully we'll make a little bit of progress, but this is a multi-year thing. This is not a six months and we're done type thing. Good, good.

Alright, Trend number four here. Now we can talk about observability, right? So observability driven design.

So, and again, to what degree, and, and Mitch, this is one that you are, you know, very passionate about in terms of, you know, kind of open telemetry and, you know, some of the options that we have once you kind of standardize what that data format looks like so that you don't have to, you know, do a whole bunch of translation normalization, uh, on the telemetry that, that you're collecting. Um, so give gimme a sense of where you think observability is and what's changed and, and where you think the next half of the year is gonna be. Yeah, I, so what I've seen so far this year is observability has now expanded kinda like DevOps expanded right outside of its initial sort of definition and observability.

We think about open telemetry and tying it into ops and s r e, that's all still true and, and very much on its own path. I think moving quickly, it's interesting the network ops folks are now thinking in the same way, how do I adopt observability? Whether it's open telemetry or some similar kind approaches.

Another interesting thing is how do we get observability or visibility into Kubernetes environments? And because you can, you can have a massive, you know, clusters, number of servers, all of that kind of thing, uh, which is extremely hard to understand what's going on as now take that to the application level where you're kind of using open telemetry. So there's new emerging tools that are focusing just on observability for Kubernetes itself, um, which ties to the complexity issue, all of the above.

So things are starting to converge as, uh, observability expands its role in the industry. Yeah, for, for sure, for sure. And, and you, you know, in, in terms of this, you know, kind of observability sprawl as well as you start to see organizations that have been built in the cloud, right?

Or built on Kubernetes, and these are, I don't want to even say all startups, but, you know, certainly innovative stacks within even bigger companies. But when you have folks that have bought into this cloud native approach, really kind of had built into that philosophy, and again, it doesn't have to be all applications for that entire environment, although it may be right, but it's that group that has basically adopted observability and this whole observability driven design, uh, type of approach. They're starting to look at what else can I do with this platform, right?

It's just a data management platform. So a lot of the observability vendors are starting to talk about things like security and identity and some of those other areas that really need, you know, much more comprehensive monitoring. They're starting to dig deeper into, you know, the application and, and, and the code, uh, sides of things.

So, so for those folks where observability is home, right, the observability folks are starting to, you know, really expand and sprawl, they ex expand their purview, uh, in terms of, of other things that, that they can look at. So, so that's definitely something to watch because y you know, we certainly see, I I don't expect the security folks to seed, uh, that ground, uh, y you know, without a big fight. And obviously that's something we are gonna talk about a lot in November.

We're doing the SecOps 2024 conference in, in, uh, virtual conference in, in November. So obviously we'll handle a lot of those issues. But when we talk about observability, we do have to start, you know, kind of looking at what areas or, you know, you're gonna start to see this overlap.

And, uh, again, those are decisions that customers have to make because, uh, in a lot of cases, especially in this macro environment, uh, you know, doing all of the above is, is really no longer an option. So you're gonna have to pick, You know, you mentioned platform again, and that's, I think is another part of the observability to stop thinking of it as a tool is also, it is also a, and a data management platform. Cuz all those sources, you know, they're not, they're not minimizing and con consolidating their growing and growing as you're doing more and more.

So managing all that data and starting to get some understanding of context as it's correlated together and end use for whatever kind of app or security or all of the above, to your point. So it, it really is a massive data management problem platform and I think that kind of thinking is much, much more prevalent today in the market. Yeah, for, for sure.

And, and you know, to just kind of dangle out a little couple of goodies for where, you know, that's certainly going on the security side and I would not be surprised to see, uh, a lot of the same kinds of, um, activities on, on the, you know, kind of observability and, and and DevOps and application side, uh, is this idea federated search, right? So starting to see that in security, but the reality is you can't move all of your data into one common platform easily, especially if you've got stacks everywhere. And, um, y you know, being in a position where, uh, you've gotta support multiple cloud platforms and, and multiple different technologies.

This idea of centralization given whether you pay for by ingest, whether you pay, uh, y you know, by compute it, it doesn't matter, right? There's too much stuff, you're not gonna move it all into one place. So the idea of figuring out how to leverage the data that's out there for the specific alerts and or searches that need to happen when you're trying to figure out telemetry, that's something to keep an eye on for, you know, mid 2024 to late 2024 cuz you know, those technologies are starting to appear.

They're, you know, we'll start to see really scalable architectures, uh, in that timeframe. So about this time next year when we're going through, uh, you know, the trends from 2024, hopefully it'll be a little bit further along because I think that will really help a lot of the data management challenges that, uh, we have as, uh, as an environment. Some really good points.

Great. Alright, so trend number five, getting bigger by getting smaller. And this is where we talk about the edge, right?

So this is something that, it was something that we kind of felt we needed to kind of pull out from just any of the other different discussions because one, you know, we think it's gonna be big two, we thought that, you know, things like K three s we're going to, you know, mature to a greater degree so that folks so it can become usable. We thought that a number of the kind of edge platforms would be, you know, kind of playing into this much more. And we're seeing that, right?

Um, CloudFlare is making a big play towards, you know, their workers, you know, that happened out on the edge, the whole Akamai Linde thing in this y you know, kind of distributed cloud concept, uh, that they've, uh, introduced, uh, is, uh, again, another example of a provider that is really kind of leaning in to not just the network piece of it, but also the compute kind at the distribution point or at, you know, the closest point, you know, to the customer or to the application. So you, you know, we, we've started to see more of this stuff. Do I have a great feel for what the initial massive use cases are not yet, right?

But I think we're getting a lot closer from that standpoint, and this is definitely something that, uh, we're going to be paying attention to. But I think, I think we're gonna turn out to be, you know, kind of dead on on this one. It may, maybe it's intuitive and obvious.

I think that what isn't is, is that there are a, a much broader set of applications. Yes, we can think about, um, you know, IOT and commercial iot and things like that. But as I was mentioning earlier, this idea of the edge also being ephemeral dynamic, um, an easy example is we have another hurricane and poof, I need infrastructure now.

I've got software defined radios for my 5G network. I've got all the infrastructure on a truck, but it's not a bunch of specialized hardware. It's all just virtualized download configuration from the cloud.

It's there for four months and then it's gone, or it's there for two weeks, whatever might be, that's a simple example. Um, but I think if you think about the federal government and the military and the kind of missions that you might do under those kinds of cer uh, circumstances, um, exp geology and, and energy exploration, there's a whole bunch of areas where, you know, where I need it today is not where I need it tomorrow. And so then I think the edge moving and uh, being dynamic in that way as well as talking to much smaller devices.

Not saying we're gonna say run K zero or K three on, on every, uh, thermostat in every home, but we are pushing it much more out to the edge. So it's, it's an interesting how it's emerging. Yeah, you bet.

You bet. Um, well good. Alright, so I, I mean we, we wanted to kind of go through pretty quickly go through and, and give a sense of, of where the progress was from what we said was gonna happen in January.

I I think we did that, we went through all of our different trends, you know, give, uh, uh, a pretty candid view of, of what we thought, uh, was gonna happen and what isn't. So Mitch, again, one little tip. What do you think is, what do you think we're gonna see in the, in the second half of the year?

Um, so everybody can kinda wet their whistle a little bit, I think. Uh, so we've gone a whole session. We haven't talked about ai.

That's obviously gonna start to come up much, much more. You're seeing just really basic generative AI types of applications, but technology vendors are, are sitting on a lot of data and they're trying to figure out what is the unique value that I have because of the customers, the scenarios, the apps that are running on our products either in the cloud or combined environments. So I think that's, that's a big pressing issue.

The other is, are it organizations going to be trying to build their own AI stuff into their Kubernetes environment or other environments? So I think that'll be a much bigger part of our conversation both later in the year we have an event coming up as well as, uh, the predict when we get to predict 2024 Part, we'll just crank it through all this stuff. You, you know, from, from my standpoint, um, I, I think we're going to, you, you know, see a, a real kind of focus on, I don't wanna call it portability, right?

But, you know, kind of the concern about vendor locking. Mm-hmm. And, and I think when we start to look at it, one of the things we didn't really talk about was serverless.

Cuz it's not really cloud native per se, but obviously it's a competing type of application architecture that you can use. Uh, and even some of our pulse meters, uh, you know, and the polls that we're doing have kind of indicated that, you know, Kubernetes is, is eating up, right? Serverless and, and part of it I think is the, just the open source piece of it.

But again, I think part of it is just the concern about lock-in, right? And, and, and y y you know, and again, AWS can do what AWS does, Azure does what Azure does, but if you build to these specific environments, you really don't have an option to move. And I'm not saying it's gonna be easy to move, you know, kind of a, a, a Kubernetes type of application, but at least it's kind of a thing, right?

Y you know, in concept you should do that. So I, I think that we're gonna see some folks really start, you know, kind of talking about data movement between platforms. We're gonna talk about, you know, kind of portability from that standpoint.

Not that we're gonna do it, but from a diligence standpoint, I think people just feel more comfortable when they don't feel locked in, right? When they feel like they have options, even if they never, ever use them, right? They, and, and the idea of some of these other, uh, you know, really vendor or cloud, cloud platform kind of specific environments, it's just, it's very uncomfortable for some organizations.

So I, that, that's kind of my thing. I think we're gonna see a little bit more activity on that front, you know, as we kind of head into 2024, I dunno if I'm confident enough to say prediction, but it can almost seems like we need a Kubernetes core. Like we have a Linux core that that's the Yeah, that's the part, you know, you can build from and the rest of the things you hang on might be part of Kubernetes and they might be, you know, vendor enhanced, et cetera.

So maybe that's what we need. Well, you know, there are a whole bunch of, you know, vendor ish and, and even, you know, kind of foundation ish, uh, issues that go along with, you know, kind of all of those different stuff. So as, as always, what's good for, you know, kind of customers and enterprises and, and businesses that are moving towards this is not necessarily what ends up happening because of a lot of, um, you know, ego, ego, ego, uh, some politics, uh, and, and certainly, you know, kind of the profit motive, which really does drive, uh, a a lot of things along those lines.

So. Great. Mitch, always a pleasure.

Thank you for playing. Pleasure. Great.

Mike with us today. Great job, uh, with text on research. Uh, and now we will wrap this one up and send you back for the next session.

Thanks everybody.